Paternity Leave Rant

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Immigration works for how many generations though? You will be eventually facing the same issues unless you expect India, China, etc to just export their most talented and brightest workers for the benefit of Canada, and then sterilized them so they don't have children to interfere with their work.

I don't really understand how the OP got saddled with this suddenly though. Processes should be in place to ensure a smooth transition of any work, and that nothing is left incomplete. Ideally the worker going on leave, and the company knew this well in advance. The worker should have bee wrapping up any unfinished work.

I think the OP wrote somewhere that his company landed a giant job just as this guy was leaving, so bad timing was a factor in the extra workload.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Sliver

It was tough, but I found it like five posts above yours.

It sure was tough considering he never said that he does it all on his own or without help. He pointed out how he is set up so that he doesn't have to rely on his co-workers or employment to pick up his slack.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by moon

It sure was tough considering he never said that he does it all on his own or without help. He pointed out how he is set up so that he doesn't have to rely on his co-workers or employment to pick up his slack.

Care to show me who is helping him then? His post was about how he does it all himself and works harder than before he had kids. No matter what life throws at him he'll take care of it without affecting his coworkers. He's like the Captain America of his company, selflessly shielding all his poor defenseless coworkers from any extra work a life hiccup of his could hurl at them.

So yeah, where does he say he gets help from outside his coworkers? And even if he does have a personal support network independent of his coworkers, does that mean everybody has that?

[moon]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Care to show me who is helping him then? His post was about how he does it all himself and works harder than before he had kids. No matter what life throws at him he'll take care of it without affecting his coworkers. He's like the Captain America of his company, selflessly shielding all his poor defenseless coworkers from any extra work a life hiccup of his could hurl at them.

I don't know who is helping him because he didn't say whether or not he got help because that wasn't the issue he was addressing.

So yeah, where does he say he gets help from outside his coworkers? And even if he does have a personal support network independent of his coworkers, does that mean everybody has that?

What does this have to do with what I was asking?

And for those people then they should find jobs which enable them to raise their kids without relying on others to do their job for them or to get paid for not doing work. The same way that people with health issues, relationships, hobbies, volunteer work etc. deal with their stuff without expectations of special treatment and workers doing their work or getting paid for not being there.

[Sliver]

Okay moon, that's your opinion and you are entitled to be as obtuse as you like.

You can't possibly have said people with health problems don't expect special treatment with a straight face, but I clearly must be arguing with a 15 year old or something because that is truly a ######ed thing to think, let alone say.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Okay moon, that's your opinion and you are entitled to be as obtuse as you like.

You can't possibly have said people with health problems don't expect special treatment with a straight face, but I clearly must be arguing with a 15 year old or something because that is truly a ######ed thing to think, let alone say.

People with health problems take medical leaves as dealt with by their employers.

I don't see them ducking out of work saying "Bob do my work while I go out" or "hey employer pay me while I go to a doctors appointment."

[freedogger]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Care to show me who is helping him then? His post was about how he does it all himself and works harder than before he had kids. No matter what life throws at him he'll take care of it without affecting his coworkers. He's like the Captain America of his company, selflessly shielding all his poor defenseless coworkers from any extra work a life hiccup of his could hurl at them.

So yeah, where does he say he gets help from outside his coworkers? And even if he does have a personal support network independent of his coworkers, does that mean everybody has that?

I'm nothing special and please excuse me for trying to explain how I'm not a burden and a leech on society.

Sliver forgot to include several other categories of parents that don't offload to others at work:
- parents already well enough off to have nannies
- parents who have their children a few or more years apart and get help from older siblings
- parents who have help from their close relatives
- parents who decide one of them should work and the other should stay at home in the real full time job

[freedogger]

Originally Posted by moon

It sure was tough considering he never said that he does it all on his own or without help. He pointed out how he is set up so that he doesn't have to rely on his co-workers or employment to pick up his slack.

Yeah that's fair to say.

Custom software development of complex enterprise applications is the gig. It isn't perfect, but most of our processes that we follow are best of class. We definately aren't super heros, when a company needs super heros or heroic work, typically there are big problems under the surface.

The projects we work on take a year on average to finish. We still deliver components of the whole project in a finished form every month.

We bill by the hour and they have to be honest hours. That's about where it ends. I don't give a rats arse how many hours someone works one day vs another. Velocity - the ability for the team to get through complexity is the metric we really obsess about.

I want my mom's and dads to sleep in if they have had a rough night. They will be orders of magnitude more productive when they finally do get in. If the commute is hard on someone, we encourage them to try different hours that aren't as busy. It is more important to have well crafted solutions that are fit to purpose than to worry about johnny who might duck out early or pull the odd all nighter to catch up. Sometimes people just get fed up or tired and leave early. Sometimes they are on a tear and work late. The project is better off in either case. Most of the time people work 7-9 hours and just go home. Most over time in one week over the last four years was 60, no one worked more than 50 in any 3 consecutive weeks and we all averaged under 45 each of the years.

I work with similar minded people. It isn't luck either that I found this gig, it resulted from long term career planning and hard work over many years to get here. Definitely not talent. What motivated me to get this focused? Desire to have a family.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Sliver

He made the right call - the time with them and the fact that his kids knew their dad cared more about them than some stupid press release, or annual report, or promotion, etc. could not have been better spent even though I had to work harder.

And this is the very crux of the disagreement. Your family IS NOT MORE IMPORTANT than mine. Not to me. MY family is more important to me. As you point out, the actual job itself probably doesn't even matter in the long run. However, the time I can't spend with my wife because someone's run off with "kids" as an excuse and I am simply expected to pick up the slack because I don't have the "kids" excuse really starts to add up quickly. Especially because, as you also point out, it's time I can't get back. What makes your time more special than mine?

And that's just plain BS. I should not have to suffer a detriment to my way of life because of a choice you made in yours that I have no control over.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

And this is the very crux of the disagreement. Your family IS NOT MORE IMPORTANT than mine. Not to me. MY family is more important to me. As you point out, the actual job itself probably doesn't even matter in the long run. However, the time I can't spend with my wife because someone's run off with "kids" as an excuse and I am simply expected to pick up the slack because I don't have the "kids" excuse really starts to add up quickly. Especially because, as you also point out, it's time I can't get back. What makes your time more special than mine?

And that's just plain BS. I should not have to suffer a detriment to my way of life because of a choice you made in yours that I have no control over.

Well let's agree to disagree. As I said, I understand where you are coming from as I once shared that opinion.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by freedogger

I'm nothing special and please excuse me for trying to explain how I'm not a burden and a leech on society.

Sliver forgot to include several other categories of parents that don't offload to others at work:
- parents already well enough off to have nannies
- parents who have their children a few or more years apart and get help from older siblings
- parents who have help from their close relatives
- parents who decide one of them should work and the other should stay at home in the real full time job

I don't know if I forgot to mention those more than I was just talking about people in situations that don't necessarily have that help. Parents shouldn't be burdening coworkers as a first option, but in many cases it may be the only option.

As for nannies, there are a lot of people who could comfortably afford nannies, but choose not to. I think my opinion is clear that I believe parents should be spending as much time as they can with their kids, not nannies. I will admit to having looked into a nanny in moments of weakness, however.

[Swarly]

Sliver you seem to be confusing 'friends and family' with 'co-workers'. Just because I work with someone dosn't mean I have to give an f about their lives or their bratty kids. I didn't become part of your 'village' because the same person signs our checks. I have no obligation to help out, but I will because I want the company to do well and therefore give me more money.

People in general will help out in the emergency situations you describe, things that pop up once in a while. Heck I don't mind covering for a co-worker that was at the bar partying til 4am, as long as it is a one-off thing not an every day/week occurrence.

But your attitude of OMG kids are hard everybody now has to help me really irks me. If you can't do your work and raise kids then its simple, don't. Find a more flexible job or don't have kids. Nobody forced you into this, you brought it upon yourself (same reason I give no sympathy to hangover victims). I really get bothered by the "woe is me" crowd (not directed at you Sliver). I lump parents expecting special treatment with the people who chronically complain about work. If you don't like your situation then change it.

I have a friend who gets dumped extra work for the weekends, is forced to go on extra business trips because she doesn't have a kid and rather than other co-workers thanking her for this they say things like, well you can do it you dont have kids. Shouldn't matter, she didn't sign on to do this when she started. I think this is the attitude that most people are bothered by and one that us single folks are encountering on an increasingly frequent basis.


P.S. you sound like generally good guy but I'm really glad I don't work for you. And sorry if I sound like more of a dick than intended as I'm quite sleep deprived right now.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I'm sitting here at my work desk (working late again) just fuming about something I see as work place double standard. I'll try to explain...

One of my co-workers (call him "Joe") recently had a baby, and as is his right in the Province of Ontario, he decided to take a paternity leave. That's fine and it didn't bother me in itself, even if his wife is a writer for television show and works from home anyway, but I digress... I can see why a new father would want to be close to home for the first bit.

The problem is that he left me a tonne of work that should have been done. In fact, I cancelled my summer holidays and am taking them in the fall now because I know that I am going to be drowning in work in July and August. I was talking to my boss today and commented that I was really busy, but that at least I could hand back the work when "Joe" gets back from paternity leave in August. She then told me that it wasn't a good idea because she knew that after she had her kids, all she wanted to do was get home on time everyday to make sure everything was fine and that "Joe" will not have the extra afterhours time needed to manage these projects (and as many "billable" jobs are, you often work a 10 hour day just to be billable for 8). Then she told me that he is also taking a 2 week vacation just 5 days after he comes back... after I cancelled mine in order to take on his clients.

Does anyone else feel that having children should not give you special treatment or more rope at your job? From my perspective, I doubt that I will ever have kids due to a medical issue with my wife, but the thing that gets me in that it seems like people think that because I don't have children, that I don't have a life or that my private time is less valuable.

Before anyone says it, I actually do like my job and the people I work with, and I also doubt that it is different anywhere else. I'm just ranting because it feels good to get it out I guess.

Sorry to go all the way back to the original post, but I see it this way: you put yourself in the position of being taken advantage of and you were. The rest of the story is filler.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

And this is the very crux of the disagreement. Your family IS NOT MORE IMPORTANT than mine. Not to me. MY family is more important to me. As you point out, the actual job itself probably doesn't even matter in the long run. However, the time I can't spend with my wife because someone's run off with "kids" as an excuse and I am simply expected to pick up the slack because I don't have the "kids" excuse really starts to add up quickly. Especially because, as you also point out, it's time I can't get back. What makes your time more special than mine?

And that's just plain BS. I should not have to suffer a detriment to my way of life because of a choice you made in yours that I have no control over.

But who sid that your family is any less important than somebody else's? It just sounds like nobody has the guts to stand up for themselves at work. Maybe only people with kids have the strength to say, "I am going home at 5 to have dinner with my family, no matter what". If co-worker A thinks that work is more important than their wife, husband, kids, etc. that's their choice.

I think eventually people learn that the extra time you put into work isn't really worth it compared to spending the most time you can with family. This said, I realize how hard it is to say "no" to a request from a boss or manager. I have done the workaholic stint, and I have seen people do the workaholic stint. It leads nowhere.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Wormius

But who sid that your family is any less important than somebody else's? It just sounds like nobody has the guts to stand up for themselves at work.

About seven or eight years ago I was in a situation where my boss at the time granted a special priviledge to an employee with a child that was not offered to the child-free members of the staff. We did have the courage to stand up for ourselves but were told in so many words to STFU.

Here's what happened:

At the time, I was working an entry-level IT job providing end-user tech support. There were five techs on the team, all of whom were 20-something males. Our manager was in his 40s. Support hours were Mon-Sat from 8am to 5pm; however, Saturdays were generally slower than weekdays, so only one tech had to work that day. We had a regular rotation where everyone on the team worked one Saturday out of every five. It was fair and equitable to everyone.

After a few years, one of the team members became a parent. He requested to our manager that he be exempt from the Saturday rotation so he could spend more time with his family. My boss granted his request, meaning each of the other techs now had to work 20% more weekend shifts to fill the gap (one Saturday out of every four). We thought this was unfair, so the four of us co-authored and signed a written memo to our manager saying that even though we didn't have children, we nonetheless had family and friends with whom we wished to spend time on the weekends. We expressed displeasure that our manager agreed with our coworker who thought that his child was more important to him than our loved ones were to us.

Within 15 minutes of submitting the letter to our boss, we received a terse email reply telling us to be more supportive of our colleague and better team players and that he didn't want to hear another word about this. Needless to say, morale plummetted after this incident.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Within 15 minutes of submitting the letter to our boss, we received a terse email reply telling us to be more supportive of our colleague and better team players and that he didn't want to hear another word about this. Needless to say, morale plummetted after this incident.

I was pretty much told the same thing, but in a more polite way.

I mentioned to one of my bosses that I understood that paternity leave was a right and that I didn't mind working extra for a few months to accommodate them, but that I didn't know that granting him a reduced work load after the paternity leave was an option.

The response I got was the it's just the stage of life he is at and I should accept that. I'm not really happy with the response, but they also said that they were going to hire someone - so that is good.

I still think the double standard is BS though. I would gladly take a reduced workload if I could get the same pay and benefits, but because I have not impregnated someone, that option isn't available. So basically, if you ejaculate into someone's vagina without using protection, you stand to get more favourable work place treatment.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I was pretty much told the same thing, but in a more polite way.

I mentioned to one of my bosses that I understood that paternity leave was a right and that I didn't mind working extra for a few months to accommodate them, but that I didn't know that granting him a reduced work load after the paternity leave was an option.

The response I got was the it's just the stage of life he is at and I should accept that. I'm not really happy with the response, but they also said that they were going to hire someone - so that is good.

I still think the double standard is BS though. I would gladly take a reduced workload if I could get the same pay and benefits, but because I have not impregnated someone, that option isn't available. So basically, if you ejaculate into someone's vagina without using protection, you stand to get more favourable work place treatment.

Wow, I totally read your story wrong. I thought someone had a kid. You've got quite the open workplace! You don't need a kid; you need a hidden camera.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Wormius

But who sid that your family is any less important than somebody else's? It just sounds like nobody has the guts to stand up for themselves at work. Maybe only people with kids have the strength to say, "I am going home at 5 to have dinner with my family, no matter what". If co-worker A thinks that work is more important than their wife, husband, kids, etc. that's their choice.

I think eventually people learn that the extra time you put into work isn't really worth it compared to spending the most time you can with family. This said, I realize how hard it is to say "no" to a request from a boss or manager. I have done the workaholic stint, and I have seen people do the workaholic stint. It leads nowhere.

Oh, I learned the hard way. I do now. My bosses don't even tend to bother to ask me about "voluntary" overtime. They know that I will just say no, period. But my immediate supervisor also knows that if he's in a bind and needs someone, to tell me so, and I will stay and help out.

Originally Posted by MarchHare

About seven or eight years ago I was in a situation where my boss at the time granted a special priviledge to an employee with a child that was not offered to the child-free members of the staff. We did have the courage to stand up for ourselves but were told in so many words to STFU.

Here's what happened:

At the time, I was working an entry-level IT job providing end-user tech support. There were five techs on the team, all of whom were 20-something males. Our manager was in his 40s. Support hours were Mon-Sat from 8am to 5pm; however, Saturdays were generally slower than weekdays, so only one tech had to work that day. We had a regular rotation where everyone on the team worked one Saturday out of every five. It was fair and equitable to everyone.

After a few years, one of the team members became a parent. He requested to our manager that he be exempt from the Saturday rotation so he could spend more time with his family. My boss granted his request, meaning each of the other techs now had to work 20% more weekend shifts to fill the gap (one Saturday out of every four). We thought this was unfair, so the four of us co-authored and signed a written memo to our manager saying that even though we didn't have children, we nonetheless had family and friends with whom we wished to spend time on the weekends. We expressed displeasure that our manager agreed with our coworker who thought that his child was more important to him than our loved ones were to us.

Within 15 minutes of submitting the letter to our boss, we received a terse email reply telling us to be more supportive of our colleague and better team players and that he didn't want to hear another word about this. Needless to say, morale plummetted after this incident.

This is pretty much what happened to me, too. When hired, I was told that weekend work was rare, and was rotated around among all staff members. Sounds fair enough. I start work, and the weekend work starts pouring in. I'd say 3 out of 4 weekends, there was work that needed to be done.

And yet, oddly enough, there was one person who never worked weekends. When I asked around my co-workers, I was told "that's how it's always been." When I went to my supervisor, I was told that it was "because she spends weekends with her kids." I note here that she is married, not single. I went to HR and complained and was told "That's just the way it is."

In the two years I was there, this woman never worked a SINGLE weekend, while most of the rest of us worked at least 2 and occasionally 3 weekends per month, every month.

[chemgear]

^ As long as she is compensated accordingly I would assume/hope.

[Sliver]

Regarding the argument that family time between a married, childless couple or a single person is the same/as important as a parent going home to their child. The time requirements are different. Kids require at least one parent home. In fact, it's illegal to leave them alone. They need care and love to grow and it must be provided constantly and consistently everyday.

Adults don't have the same requirements as small children. So if somebody is putting in a bunch of overtime, their spouse or friends will be fine in their absence. Lost time because of an increased schedule can also be made up at a later date, like a vacation using accrued overtime, for example. You can't bank parenting time then spend it when it is more convenient as they need their parents daily.

Parents need to be managed differently and just because they get certain privileges doesn't mean you should get the same privileges. You don't need them. If you think things aren't fair for you then talk to your boss...maybe you need a raise, better OT compensation, a promotion, more holiday time, more flex days, etc., but wanting what the parent gets makes you look ridiculous to me.