Paternity Leave Rant

[Rerun]

I some aspects, FlamesAddiction, I sympathize with you, but in others I don't.
With your altruistic cancellation of your vacation holidays you made your own bed so I guess you'll just have to sleep in it.

In most cases it really doesn't pay to be the nice guy (especially at work). You usually just end up being taken advantage of.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by SportsJunky

We have a baby and a toddler at home right now and we are zombies for the most part. I think what really suffers isn't work (I work many nights to get my projects done on time after the kids are in bed) and it isn't parenting (it comes first no matter what) - what suffers is 'me' time or 'us' time. That's the killer.

The 'it takes a village stuff' isn't something I necessarily subscribe to but I do think it has a ring of truth to it. People tend to work around our schedule now just as we did theirs in the days when they had young kids and we didn't yet. I have had people let me cut in line if I have a cranky kid in my arms. I have had complete strangers offer to watch my kids for a minute at a play centre or a restaurant so I can go grab something. So it does take a village and I see it all the time. Thankfully.

^ That's nice and I am certainly open to being to being reasonably accommodating as anybody else. But there are so many more people who obviously expect/feel entitled to having everybody around them bend over backwards once they have kids. (Clearly I am talking in the general sense and not to SportsJunky).

Having a kid is probably the biggest decision/act that an adult can make - it's a two decade long financial and life commitment. If you didn't realize or think through the scope of the changes and responsibilities that come with the adult decision, then that is kinda too bad. Nothing wrong with having a kid, but nobody forced you to make that decision and place yourself under the resulting conditions.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

My annoyance with Silver's comments isn't the fact that I get upset covering a co-worker if they have a kid emergency. As a good co-worker, and as a friend, I have no problems covering for someone if they need it. But the reason I'm doing it is because I want to, not because some self righteous parent tells me its my responsibility to because I somehow have an obligation to care for the next generation.

I used to think that way too. Then I had kids. You clearing don't have the life experience to know what you're talking about.

/DESS

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by albertGQ

I am a father to two young boys. I took time off when they were born but I used my vacation days. I don't get extra vacation days because I have two kids. I don't get more sick days because I have have two kids.

It may take a village to raise kids, but my coworkers are not in my village. My village consists of my in laws, my brothers, my dad, and my step mom. They help raise my child, not my co workers, not my boss, not my assistant

That's great you have a group that includes at least six people that I can count in your post in addition to you and your wife. Hopefully you can recognize that not everybody has that. In many cases the mother and father are the only people able to look after their kids, and in some cases just one parent. As I said in my above post, what about the young lady that works for me? She's here from India all by herself with her entire family including parents still living on the other side of earth (her sister is here, but she has small kids, too)..

I think you've recognized parents can't raise children alone every single day without some extra help from time to time. You are in a very fortunate position that you seem to have lots of loving help available to you. Not everybody has that.

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

My annoyance with Silver's comments isn't the fact that I get upset covering a co-worker if they have a kid emergency. As a good co-worker, and as a friend, I have no problems covering for someone if they need it. But the reason I'm doing it is because I want to, not because some self righteous parent tells me its my responsibility to because I somehow have an obligation to care for the next generation.

That's good you want to. But it's not like you can say no, either. What are you going to do, raise a stink because somebody left to take their kid to the hospital? Of course not. Sorry you don't like the word, but a responsibility it is.

The parents should still be appreciative of your efforts, though.

[GP_Matt]

I have no problem covering for a coworker who needs time off for their kids but I do expect them to do the same if I want an afternoon off to go kayaking or extra time for an exotic vacation.
Now that I think about it, I may be taking more time off for my personal pursuits than the parent who has to deal with a sick kid or a recital.

[Yeah_Baby]

When people expect me to cover for them, or help them out a bind, is when I get annoyed. Don't take advantage of my kindness.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Sliver

That's good you want to. But it's not like you can say no, either. What are you going to do, raise a stink because somebody left to take their kid to the hospital? Of course not. Sorry you don't like the word, but a responsibility it is.

The parents should still be appreciative of your efforts, though.

But they are not. I see this double standard at my work.

Co-worker A with kids runs home because kid was sent home from school but then the next day gets mad because Co-worker B who is single needed to take a couple of hours off (using his own flex-time) to travel and get to the campsite earlier.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by fotze

I kind of agree that co-workers are there to pick up slack, thats what we/they do, what I don't agree with is that the reason for it being children being any more important than if someone had a traithlon to attend. Your own reality does not make it so for others.

I don't like having folks milk it or making it into this noble and virtuous enterprise because it makes the rest of us look bad.

I'm not even talking about my own reality necessarily.

Why do you guys keep thinking I think it's noble and virtuous to be a parent. It just is what it is - a lot of work and parents sometimes need support. If there aren't family/friends around, sometimes coworkers have to pick up the slack.

The thing with say a triathlon is you can plan ahead for that versus a kid crisis that can crop up out of nowhere. We can all have crises, mind you, but if you have kids they're likely to be more frequent and they are 100% the parent's responsibility. When you have to handle one of these, you're not at work.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

But they are not. I see this double standard at my work.

Co-worker A with kids runs home because kid was sent home from school but then the next day gets mad because Co-worker B who is single needed to take a couple of hours off (using his own flex-time) to travel and get to the campsite earlier.

Well that's unreasonable. But just because you came up with one example of an unreasonable parent, doesn't mean every parent that leans on their coworkers for help is unappreciative or thinks somebody else shouldn't be able to exercise their right to flex time.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Well that's unreasonable. But just because you came up with one example of an unreasonable parent, doesn't mean every parent that leans on their coworkers for help is unappreciative or thinks somebody else shouldn't be able to exercise their right to flex time.

It's happens alot. But this is a message board, I cannot list all examples or else I will be typing until it's time to go home.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

It's happens alot. But this is a message board, I cannot list all examples or else I will be typing until it's time to go home.

Well I guess people can be jerks sometimes. I agree with you they should be appreciative and if they're not people are going to get really sick of helping them and then probably not be so willing to help after awhile.

Still doesn't mean every parent is like that. But yes, in your example I agree that person wasn't being very cool.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

I used to think that way too. Then I had kids. You clearing don't have the life experience to know what you're talking about.

/DESS

Having kids adds a level of experience and knowledge on the subject that those without kids don't have.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Having kids adds a level of experience and knowledge on the subject that those without kids don't have.

And it's the height of arrogance to think so.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

And it's the height of arrogance to think so.

No, it's a fact. Seriously, Yeah_Baby, you don't think being a parent of kids gives you some knowledge and insight into being a parent of kids? Try to answer the question.

[The Yen Man]

At the end of the day, you are judged by your work. If you are a parent struggling to get all your work done because you have kids, then that will go into your evaluation. I will more likely promote the guy without kids going the extra mile to cover for the guy with kids. Hey, the guy with the kids should thank me for that. I'm just looking out for his busy time table afterall. It's obvious he can't handle the extra workload a promotion would entail.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Sliver

No, it's a fact. Seriously, Yeah_Baby, you don't think being a parent of kids gives you some knowledge and insight into being a parent of kids? Try to answer the question.

Sure it does. But it doesn't give the right to go around telling co workers they need to cover for you at work during some some kid's crisis because it's their duty to future generations.

And while it does provide insight, it doesn't give you carte blance to go around invalidating other opinions. Which is where the arrogance comes in again.

[DuffMan]

Breeding women should just stay home for a few years, until their kids are in school full time, if they are in a stable relationship.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Having kids adds a level of experience and knowledge on the subject that those without kids don't have.

I don't think anyone thinks that parenting isn't time consuming. You'll also get a ton of kid-related emergencies.

What irks me is that you think this translates into the workplace.

For example, two people are up for a promotion:

Worker A is single, and put in 10 hours a day producing quality work.
Worker B has a kid, but only managed to put in 8 hours a day producing quality work due to various kid-related emergencies and parenting duties.

What I feel you are implying from your arguments is that Worker B is equally qualified for a promotion as worker A, because worker A SHOULD be working more hours than worker B due to the fact that he's single, and isn't burdened with noble parenting duty.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

At the end of the day, you are judged by your work. If you are a parent struggling to get all your work done because you have kids, then that will go into your evaluation. I will more likely promote the guy without kids going the extra mile to cover for the guy with kids. Hey, the guy with the kids should thank me for that. I'm just looking out for his busy time table afterall. It's obvious he can't handle the extra workload a promotion would entail.

I agree with you.

Originally Posted by Regorium

I don't think anyone thinks that parenting isn't time consuming. You'll also get a ton of kid-related emergencies.

What irks me is that you think this translates into the workplace.

For example, two people are up for a promotion:

Worker A is single, and put in 10 hours a day producing quality work.
Worker B has a kid, but only managed to put in 8 hours a day producing quality work due to various kid-related emergencies and parenting duties.

What I feel you are implying from your arguments is that Worker B is equally qualified for a promotion as worker A, because worker A SHOULD be working more hours than worker B due to the fact that he's single, and isn't burdened with noble parenting duty.

I didn't mean to imply that at all. The guy who is better for the company, works harder and picks up his coworkers' slack should absolutely get the promotion over the parent.

[V]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Maybe some of you guys are in a parenting situation that for whatever reason isn't difficult, but you are remiss in your responsibility as a member of society to think you are excused from the big-picture effort required from us all to raise and help raise the next generation.

As a boss, I feel it's incredibly discriminatory to set workplace rules based upon personal issues. I have the following examples in my workplace:

One of my guys has a wife who was recently diagnosed with cancer. This has obviously taken an enormous toll on him, and I've had to be flexible with his hours as his responsibilities at home (not kid-related) have severely impacted his performance at work. I fully expect that he'll make up some time when the worst of the storm has passed, but for the time being I've given him all the time he needs to work through things.

Another guy has a very sick mother, and he needs to take her to doctor appointments on a consistent basis, more than our standard allowance for medical leave. I could tell him to take personal time off, but I've decided to allow him to make up the time when he can.

Another guy loves to watch his English soccer in the middle of the night, so every once in a while I get an email from him telling me he won't be in the office until 9 in the morning. I don't have a problem with him making up his time. I'm fine as long as the work gets done.

There are more examples, because everyone is going through different experiences in their life, but I don't see the point of beating this dead horse.

Now, who the hell am I to judge which of these cases are noble enough for me to allow flexibility, and which aren't? My one question when evaluating these situations is this: Is their situation going to impact their workload to a point that I believe is unreasonable and will require additional resources to complete our projects?

The employees that don't have the responsibility of small kids? They better be on time or have a very good excuse.

I just can't get over the fact that you are so willing to blatantly discriminate in favour of those with children. I'm shocked that one of your non-child rearing employees hasn't contacted HR about you yet.