Have the federal Tories been corrupted by power?

[Slava]

In a word, yes. But I just wanted to make sure that my opinion as known before posting this article. It really is an interesting read and not nearly as partisan as you might expect. My favorite passage is this:

“In today’s democratic societies, organizations share power,” two intellectuals wrote some time ago. “Corporations, churches, universities, hospitals, even public sector bureaucracies make decisions through consultation, committees, and consensus-building techniques. Only in politics do we still entrust power to a single faction expected to prevail every time over the opposition by sheer force of numbers. Even more anachronistically, we persist in structuring the governing team like a military regiment under a single commander with almost total power to appoint, discipline, and expel subordinates.”

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Po...#ixzz1yXFMbhSF

Truthfully I just tried to make a headline that Rerun would be proud of, but it is an interesting piece regardless of what you think of the CPC policies.

[troutman]

Every cook has to learn how to govern the state.

[Huntingwhale]

Every goverment/leadership body in the history of mankind has been corrupted by power.

[MarchHare]

Andrew Coyne wrote an op/ed piece in yesterday's National Post with the same premise as Slava's OP: after six years in power, Harper's Conservatives have turned against some of the very ideals (accountability, ethics, openness, less power concentrated in the PMO, etc.) they once claimed to stand for.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...ir-own-ideals/

As has so often been the case of late, the conflict here is not so much between Conservatives and their opponents. It is between Conservatives and their very souls.

[Ashartus]

I think the biggest issue isn't that power has "corrupted" them. Rather (similar to what MarchHare said), the modern Conservatives are a party that basically has its roots in a democratic reform movement pushing for more accountability, transparency, etc., and now they've gone further in the opposite direction than the governments they were fighting against. It's a complete betrayal of some of their core values.

[Puppet Guy]

The prime lesson I learned from poli-sci is power corrupts. It's inevitable.

[NuclearPizzaMan]

No.

The Conservatives were corrupt long before they got into power. One does not simply walk into political office.

[Coach]

Pretty sure this can be said, to some degree, about every politician in power....everywhere.

[EddyBeers]

This is ridiculous Slava, if the Tories are corrupt it is because the Liberals showed them how to be that way. Del Mastro was an innocent soul until he saw what the Liberals were doing. Massive taxpayer spending on political polling is occurring, but think of how much worse it would be if the Liberals were in power. The Conservatives might be slightly corrupt, but it is because of the Liberal influence, furthermore, think of how much more corrupt our government would be if the Liberals were in power.

[Jacks]

I always laugh when I hear Liberals complain that "The Tories came in on the white horse of accountability and promised that things will be better." "now they are just as bad as us so you should kick them out and vote us back in". Most politicians are scumbags, you need to pick the one who's policy you most agree with and hope for the best.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

I think the biggest issue isn't that power has "corrupted" them. Rather (similar to what MarchHare said), the modern Conservatives are a party that basically has its roots in a democratic reform movement pushing for more accountability, transparency, etc., and now they've gone further in the opposite direction than the governments they were fighting against. It's a complete betrayal of some of their core values.

Do you believe that they really held those core values? It's all just talk. A bunch of politicians got together and brainstormed about what they would have to say to voters in order to get the cushy high paying office jobs that they all want. None of the big parties have real core values... I am 100% convinced of that. They want money and they want power (to get more money). It's like when the average person goes for a job interview and BSs about their loyalty and selfless virtue, when all they really want is a job.

I honestly don't know what the solution is, but the whole system sucks. The OP has a quote that I think is interesting in this respect. Just like how feudalism became obsolete as industrialization and modernization took place, I feel that the model of most nation states is becoming archaic.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Jacks

I always laugh when I hear Liberals complain that "The Tories came in on the white horse of accountability and promised that things will be better." "now they are just as bad as us so you should kick them out and vote us back in". Most politicians are scumbags, you need to pick the one who's policy you most agree with and hope for the best.

Well that's great. I just have one concern with it though. Why should we let any politicians off the hook, regardless of the party? Should the electorate accept that because the Liberals were bad that the CPC can be bad?

The one thing that will motivate a politician is a fear of losing his job. That means that at least there has to be the threat that people will vote for the other guy, so when you dismiss them as "not as bad as the other guys" you basically let them do whatever they please with no fear of repercussions. That is a sad state of affairs.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Do you believe that they really held those core values? It's all just talk. A bunch of politicians got together and brainstormed about what they would have to say to voters in order to get the cushy high paying office jobs that they all want.

I think the original Reform Party under Preston Manning had real intentions of changing the way things were done. They were demonized and totally rejected out East and Manning was made out to be some sort of weak kneed racist bible thumper. Now people are talking about how decent of a guy he is/was. The people get what they deserve. Trying to do things right doesn't win you an election. Pandering, vote buying and promising everything to everyone while covering your ass wins elections.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well that's great. I just have one concern with it though. Why should we let any politicians off the hook, regardless of the party? Should the electorate accept that because the Liberals were bad that the CPC can be bad?

No, when a credible alternative comes around you vote the old guard out. Unfortunately the NDP are not an option. The Libs might be an option if they got back to sound economic policies, not carbon taxes and long gun registries. Problem is that the Libs haven't changed much since they were turfed.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Jacks

I think the original Reform Party under Preston Manning had real intentions of changing the way things were done. They were demonized and totally rejected out East and Manning was made out to be some sort of weak kneed racist bible thumper. Now people are talking about how decent of a guy he is/was. The people get what they deserve. Trying to do things right doesn't win you an election. Pandering, vote buying and promising everything to everyone while covering your ass wins elections.

He was demonized because there were social aspects to his policy and platform that people objected to. Just because people object to your policy and thoughts politically doesn't mean that you aren't a good guy or anything.

I like to think that I'm a prime example here. I know that a lot of people on this board disagree entirely with what I think poitically. That's totally fine with me. I've met a lot of CPers though and count a number as clients. They can see that I don't have horns or anything and although we disagree politically we can still be friends.

[Jacks]

Agree totally. I couldn't be farther from you politically but that wouldn't stop me from doing business with you. Manning really was dragged through the mud though.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Agree totally. I couldn't be farther from you politically but that wouldn't stop me from doing business with you. Manning really was dragged through the mud though.

No worse than what we've seen Ignatieff and Dion go through. Its just par for the course unfortunately. Even in the US we saw Bush get flamed by his opponents for years and now that he is out and a few years have passed peoples views on him have softened. I'm not suggesting he would be elected gleefully as president, but its the old adage that time heals all wounds.

[Jacks]

I know people who still think that Bush orchestrated 9/11 and had the Segway inventor killed.

[SeoulFire]

Democracy does not work because a) people are greedy shortsighted (those that are in power) and b) stupid and shortsighted (those that put the leaders in power).

What we really need is a benevolent dictator - but once again that won't work due a) above.

[Slava]

I would be more than happy to be that benevolent dictator!