General Ongoing Coyotes saga thread

[valo403]

Originally Posted by troutman

This is a good point. At the same time though, does a poor franchise drive down the value of all the other franchises?

That's a fair question. I think it may drive down the value of some franchises, particularly those situated in markets that may share characteristics with Phoenix (geography, history etc.). I don't think it would impact the value of established markets or new franchises in places like Quebec or Southern Ontario.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

lol.

More intelligent discussion from you, what a shock

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by valo403

More intelligent discussion from you, what a shock

What else can I say when your post was a joke.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

What else can I say when your post was a joke.

Explain how you think it's a joke. That would be a start, as that's generally the idea of a discussion board.

[Notorious Honey Badger]

I can't imagine you're being intellectually serious flames, valo. An entire franchise isn't a fataing loss leader. Your treating the Coyotes like a product of the NHL. The Coyotes are their own business operating within the NHL. Yes, the fact that they're lowering the salary cap is a benefit for the other teams. But every single one of the rest of the franchise would rather have them in a successful money making city. It's a ludicrous point to bring up, other than "well, at least it's not a catastrophe for the league".

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Explain how you think it's a joke. That would be a start, as that's generally the idea of a discussion board.

Notorious honey badger handled the rebuttal well.

When Valo starts out attacking my intelligence and experience, by saying

I don't think you're understanding how a loss leader works.

so that I have to make a personal defence, it doesn't deserve a serious reply.

So why don't you get a life and stop being Valo's sycophant.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Notorious Honey Badger

I can't imagine you're being intellectually serious flames, valo. An entire franchise isn't a fataing loss leader. Your treating the Coyotes like a product of the NHL. The Coyotes are their own business operating within the NHL. Yes, the fact that they're lowering the salary cap is a benefit for the other teams. But every single one of the rest of the franchise would rather have them in a successful money making city. It's a ludicrous point to bring up, other than "well, at least it's not a catastrophe for the league".

Right, and as part of their operation within the NHL and as a function of the system created by the CBA their losses, which the league and its constituent owners do not pay the majority of, decrease the operating costs for the other owners. It's not a long term solution by any means, but people who attempt to play the 'this is taking money away from other franchises' card aren't taking the big picture into account, which is par for the course on this topic.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Notorious honey badger handled the rebuttal well.

When he starts out attacking my intelligence and experience, by saying



so that I have to make a personal defence, it doesn't deserve a serious reply.

So why don't you get a life and stop being Valo's sycophant.

How is that attacking your intelligence? Would I be attacking your intelligence if I said "I don't think you understand how icing works"? It's a comment on you mischaracterizing the situation, nothing more. If you want to turn it into something else and get defensive that's your problem.

[automaton 3]

NHB - Valo and Resolute have made good points. The Coyotes are owned by the 29 other owners. They have convinced the majority of City of Glendale council that covering much of that franchise's losses is in their best interests. The remainder of the losses are arguably being at least partially offset by the drag on league-wide revenue.

Not an idea situation by any stretch, but good strategy with the cards that they've been dealt.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by valo403

How is that attacking your intelligence? Would I be attacking your intelligence if I said "I don't think you understand how icing works"? It's a comment on you mischaracterizing the situation, nothing more. If you want to turn it into something else and get defensive that's your problem.

I guess you don't understand how much of a tool you come across as.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I guess you don't understand how much of a tool you come across as.

When discussing this subject with you it's difficult not to

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Notorious Honey Badger

I can't imagine you're being intellectually serious flames, valo. An entire franchise isn't a fataing loss leader. Your treating the Coyotes like a product of the NHL. The Coyotes are their own business operating within the NHL. Yes, the fact that they're lowering the salary cap is a benefit for the other teams. But every single one of the rest of the franchise would rather have them in a successful money making city. It's a ludicrous point to bring up, other than "well, at least it's not a catastrophe for the league".

The Coyotes are their own business, but given the CBA, and particularly how league-wide revenue impacts virtually every aspect of the league's operation, you cannot claim them to be an independent business. All teams are interlinked in a way that simply cannot be broken.

I agree with you that every owner would like to see the Coyotes, and everyone else, profitable. But I believe you are transferring your own beliefs onto them when you imply that they would rather the Coyotes were in another city that is profitable.

And no, it isn't a ludicrous point. It isn't for the exact reason you mock: No matter how hard one tries to argue otherwise, the Coyotes situation simply has not been a disaster for the NHL. It is not ideal, but nobody ever said it was. The doom and gloom that this situation is supposed to have caused is a valid opinion at a first glance, but simply does not stand up to scrutiny.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by valo403

When discussing this subject with you it's difficult not to

You just can't help yourself, can you?

[calumniate]

Originally Posted by valo403

This isn't that complicated. Look at Resolute's post. The losses/low revenues of the Coyotes decrease costs on average for the other teams. As he also pointed out this isn't a long term thing, but for the short term it hasn't had the negative financial impacts on the NHL or its constituent owners that people pretend it has.

And I'm not sure where you get the idea that a loss leader has to be some sort of R&D or like type thing, it could be done strictly for tax purposes.

Yes but this is a zero-sum game - there are 30 teams therefore we're not just talking about the losers in this situation. Yes you're decreasing the costs on average for 'loser' teams, but you're distributing these losses accross profitable teams. A higher cap hit would imply a higher cap floor true, but this has always been a fraction of total revenue (more revenue, more cap).

Phoenix sucking has no benefit to the league or other teams - there's no argument for it. It may help struggling teams in an oblique way but it does not help the league! Loss leaders for tax purposes is pretty awesome indeed but this isn't a 'book keeping' or sheltering loss, this is real money being flushed down the toilet.

And I'd love to take the 'lower cap' argument taken a bit further - if lowering the cap is such a benefit to everyone, then Jagr & company and other elite players will bolt to the KHL. The on-ice product of the NHL will suffer and therefore so will revenues.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by calumniate

Yes but this is a zero-sum game - there are 30 teams therefore we're not just talking about the losers in this situation. Yes you're decreasing the costs on average for 'loser' teams, but you're distributing these losses accross profitable teams. A higher cap hit would imply a higher cap floor true, but this has always been a fraction of total revenue (more revenue, more cap).

Phoenix sucking has no benefit to the league or other teams - there's no argument for it. It may help struggling teams in an oblique way but it does not help the league! Loss leaders for tax purposes is pretty awesome indeed but this isn't a 'book keeping' or sheltering loss, this is real money being flushed down the toilet.

I hope to one day attend the Valo school of business school.

Is it associated with the 'calumniate School of English'?

[calumniate]

Originally Posted by valo403

Right, and as part of their operation within the NHL and as a function of the system created by the CBA their losses, which the league and its constituent owners do not pay the majority of, decrease the operating costs for the other owners. It's not a long term solution by any means, but people who attempt to play the 'this is taking money away from other franchises' card aren't taking the big picture into account, which is par for the course on this topic.

No, it's not. And when you take the big picture into account it makes zero sense.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by calumniate

No, it's not. And when you take the big picture into account it makes zero sense.

What makes more sense then?

Glendale's willingness to cover the vast majority of the losses and the lack of a currently available alternate market make this pretty much the biggest no brainer out there.

[calumniate]

All I'm saying is that somebody ends up paying. In this case it's the city of Glendale. There is no loss leader to speak of (i.e. discounting something for greater profits in other areas).

If there is no other viable market out there then yes you're somewhat correct in the short term. But it will continue to be a money pit for the league and owners, and is not a long term solution by any stretch.

[Resolute 14]

Of course Glendale is the one paying. But from the NHL's perspective on maintaining the team in the short term, that isn't relevant. What is, is that the losses they are currently eating on the Coyotes are made up elsewhere. It is basically a zero-sum game for them, which allows the BoG to continue down this path for now. And given the league continues to pull in high attendance and is selling TV rights for record deals, there is not really any argument that the Coyotes situation is hampering the league in any meaningful fashion.

As to the second paragraph, I think we all agree on this point. The current situation is unsustainable in the long term. We're just trying to theorize why the NHL isn't in nearly the same hurry to relocate the franchise as some fans are.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by valo403

How is that attacking your intelligence? Would I be attacking your intelligence if I said "I don't think you understand how icing works"? It's a comment on you mischaracterizing the situation, nothing more. If you want to turn it into something else and get defensive that's your problem.

The problem is Valo, and you likely don't see it since you keep doing it, is you come across as a complete know-it-all, that is talking down to everyone in the thread. I left the discussions in this thread because you cannot argue a point, without trying to intellectually beat people down. You are like the guy in the bar, that loudly talks over everyone, to make his point while they listen. Then smirks condescendingly when someone else is making theirs. I don't necessarily agree with Vulcan, but you cannot seem to do it, without trying to insult his intelligence at every turn, and make him look childish.

I get it, you are a big corporate hot-shot living in NYC, but that does not make you an authority on this subject. If you were so right and everyone else was so wrong, it wouldn't be taking two and a half years to sell this team.

You posed the question to everyone, "Why do you care so much about this if it doesn't directly affect you?" And pretty much insinuated nobody should have an opinion if they are not. What is your stake in this? Why are you so obsessed with this subject? I am curious.