Quebec nation debate could be re-opened in Liberal race

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Is this true?

You still haven't answered my question, Rerun: do you think Quebec should be recognized by the federal government as a nation?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I must have missed the day you had anything good to say about those with an ideology left of yours.

Keep pretending you're anything but an ideologue.

But thanks for the shout-out.

It was a joke, cupcake. Relax.

I actually like Clay's suggestion of ongoing Liberal (and Conservative) bashing threads.

Also, to keep doing something, I must first start to do something. I've always maintained that in politics (and hockey), we're all biased. Some of us don't wrap our biases in delusions of objectivity.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

You still haven't answered my question, Rerun: do you think Quebec should be recognized by the federal government as a nation?

Only if Alberta is too.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

It was a joke, cupcake. Relax.

I actually like Clay's suggestion of ongoing Liberal (and Conservative) bashing threads.

Also, to keep doing something, I must first start to do something. I've always maintained that in politics (and hockey), we're all biased. Some of us don't wrap our biases in delusions of objectivity.

[starseed]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Is this true?

When the Harper Government™ declared Quebec a 'nation' within a united Canada, it was Ignatieff that first suggested to do so.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Slava

Who says they want to leave? I would bet that if a referendum were today it would be pro-Canada about 65-35. Just because people (politicians) bring it up doesn't mean its popular or contemplated.

I doubt that seperation would ever be successfully voted on if Quebec viewed things from a rational outside of thier province point of view.

they know that any Federal government overseeing a Quebec Seperation would never let Quebec set the conditions of seperation and the rest of Canada would absolutely not allow Quebec to leave with our currency, passports Canada's favorable tade and diplomatic terms and Federal Assets.

However I strongly disagree with giving one region distinct recognition over other regions, it tends to lead to resentment and anger by everyone who is then getting the short straw in terms of recognition.

at some point this whole bloody mess is going to have to be pierced like a needle to an boil. Quebec is shrinking and becoming less relevant in terms of distinctness, they actually drive anyone out unless they want to live a Francophone lifestyle. Their economic model on a provincial level is a failure and they are socially out of touch with the rest of Canada.

If recognition of nation within a nation is as innoculous as recognizing language rights, then whatever. But its not, they want federal money without oversight, and they want a veto on a national level, and they want to make federal policy and that can't happen.

If Quebec gets distinct national status how long before Ontario and Alberta and B.C. all are clammering for the same thing.

We need a strong Prime Minister who plainly states what they can legally expect to get if they vote to seperate and what that future pictures looks like and then requests that they take one more binding referendum.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I doubt that seperation would ever be successfully voted on if Quebec viewed things from a rational outside of thier province point of view.

they know that any Federal government overseeing a Quebec Seperation would never let Quebec set the conditions of seperation and the rest of Canada would absolutely not allow Quebec to leave with our currency, passports Canada's favorable tade and diplomatic terms and Federal Assets.

However I strongly disagree with giving one region distinct recognition over other regions, it tends to lead to resentment and anger by everyone who is then getting the short straw in terms of recognition.

at some point this whole bloody mess is going to have to be pierced like a needle to an boil. Quebec is shrinking and becoming less relevant in terms of distinctness, they actually drive anyone out unless they want to live a Francophone lifestyle. Their economic model on a provincial level is a failure and they are socially out of touch with the rest of Canada.

If recognition of nation within a nation is as innoculous as recognizing language rights, then whatever. But its not, they want federal money without oversight, and they want a veto on a national level, and they want to make federal policy and that can't happen.

If Quebec gets distinct national status how long before Ontario and Alberta and B.C. all are clammering for the same thing.

We need a strong Prime Minister who plainly states what they can legally expect to get if they vote to seperate and what that future pictures looks like and then requests that they take one more binding referendum.

Well this is why these issues should be discussed and brought to the forefront. Rerun posts this thread as a way to suggest that the Liberals are morons and this will surely topple them from any former hopes for governance. The reality is that this is a very important issue, and for a lot of the reasons that you've identified.

So here's the catch. Quebec wants more power and less strings attached. They want federal money and no oversight. Hate to break it to you captain, but so does Alberta and every other province or territory. In fact the squabbles between Alberta and the feds are evident even today where they have a similar ideology and agree on a lot of issues. This is why the province is opening an office in Ottawa (the the chagrin of the federal government). There are federal and provincial issues and basically it all comes down to a power struggle on certain points.

As for some of the comments about "how can they ________?" Its pretty simple in a lot of ways. They can use the Canadian dollar as currency for example by just....using the Canadian dollar as currency. There is no real way to stop them, and its a non-factor. That's how Iceland could contemplate this as well. I doubt that an independent Quebec would (with pictures of the Queen and the constant reminders of Canadian greatness in general), but there's no reason it couldn't be done. It's true that they couldn't use our passports and things like that, but we've actually seen this play out peacefully before. Vaclav Havel who was a principal in the "velvet revolution" in the former Czechoslovakia managed to orchestrate a separation that was peaceful and other than the constant beat down the Slovaks endure in various sporting events from the better looking and more talented Czechs, its really not a factor!

(In case it needs to be said, the shot against the Slovaks is a joke...although us Czechs are clearly better looking and more talented!)

[Kerplunk]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I actually like Clay's suggestion of ongoing Liberal (and Conservative) bashing threads.

Me too. Might make reading some of these threads more bearable if we kept most of the venom in a few isolated areas.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

You still haven't answered my question, Rerun: do you think Quebec should be recognized by the federal government as a nation?

No.... a distinct society within Canada, yes.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by starseed

When the Harper Government™ declared Quebec a 'nation' within a united Canada, it was Ignatieff that first suggested to do so.

Do you think Harper's and Ignatieff's definition of "nation" differ?

Do you think the PQ has the same definition of "nation"?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Rerun

No.... a distinct society, yes.

I take it, then, that you were bitterly disappointed when The Harper Government joined forces with the separatists and the socialists to successfully enact legislation in 2006 to recognize Quebec as a nation? Furthermore, I trust that you were furious when Harper forced his Conservative MPs to support the motion by making it a whipped vote for his party, threatening to expel anyone who voted against it from the CPC caucus? And I assume that you openly expressed your sincere respect and admiration for the Liberals who opposed the Conservative Party's bill to grant nation status to Quebec (15 of the 16 votes against the motion were from Liberal MPs).

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I doubt that seperation would ever be successfully voted on if Quebec viewed things from a rational outside of thier province point of view.

they know that any Federal government overseeing a Quebec Seperation would never let Quebec set the conditions of seperation and the rest of Canada would absolutely not allow Quebec to leave with our currency, passports Canada's favorable tade and diplomatic terms and Federal Assets.

However I strongly disagree with giving one region distinct recognition over other regions, it tends to lead to resentment and anger by everyone who is then getting the short straw in terms of recognition.

at some point this whole bloody mess is going to have to be pierced like a needle to an boil. Quebec is shrinking and becoming less relevant in terms of distinctness, they actually drive anyone out unless they want to live a Francophone lifestyle. Their economic model on a provincial level is a failure and they are socially out of touch with the rest of Canada.

If recognition of nation within a nation is as innoculous as recognizing language rights, then whatever. But its not, they want federal money without oversight, and they want a veto on a national level, and they want to make federal policy and that can't happen.

If Quebec gets distinct national status how long before Ontario and Alberta and B.C. all are clammering for the same thing.

We need a strong Prime Minister who plainly states what they can legally expect to get if they vote to seperate and what that future pictures looks like and then requests that they take one more binding referendum.

One does have to recognize the distinctness of Quebec society with in Canada however. They are, after all, different from the rest of us. This doesn't necessarily mean they should be entitled to special priviledges.
IMHO, no province should have special rights or entitlements that are not available to all other provinces.

[Daradon]

Haven't they already been recognized as a nation? I thought this happened in the CPC's first minority.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I take it, then, that you were bitterly disappointed when The Harper Government joined forces with the separatists and the socialists to successfully enact legislation in 2006 to recognize Quebec as a nation? Furthermore, I trust that you were furious when Harper forced his Conservative MPs to support the motion by making it a whipped vote for his party, threatening to expel anyone who voted against it from the CPC caucus? And I assume that you openly expressed your sincere respect and admiration for the Liberals who opposed the Conservative Party's bill to grant nation status to Quebec (15 of the 16 votes against the motion were from Liberal MPs).

Yes

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well this is why these issues should be discussed and brought to the forefront. Rerun posts this thread as a way to suggest that the Liberals are morons and this will surely topple them from any former hopes for governance. The reality is that this is a very important issue, and for a lot of the reasons that you've identified.

So here's the catch. Quebec wants more power and less strings attached. They want federal money and no oversight. Hate to break it to you captain, but so does Alberta and every other province or territory. In fact the squabbles between Alberta and the feds are evident even today where they have a similar ideology and agree on a lot of issues. This is why the province is opening an office in Ottawa (the the chagrin of the federal government). There are federal and provincial issues and basically it all comes down to a power struggle on certain points.

As for some of the comments about "how can they ________?" Its pretty simple in a lot of ways. They can use the Canadian dollar as currency for example by just....using the Canadian dollar as currency. There is no real way to stop them, and its a non-factor. That's how Iceland could contemplate this as well. I doubt that an independent Quebec would (with pictures of the Queen and the constant reminders of Canadian greatness in general), but there's no reason it couldn't be done. It's true that they couldn't use our passports and things like that, but we've actually seen this play out peacefully before. Vaclav Havel who was a principal in the "velvet revolution" in the former Czechoslovakia managed to orchestrate a separation that was peaceful and other than the constant beat down the Slovaks endure in various sporting events from the better looking and more talented Czechs, its really not a factor!

(In case it needs to be said, the shot against the Slovaks is a joke...although us Czechs are clearly better looking and more talented!)

Where did you get that from? All I did was post the headline of the newspaper story and quote part of the article. You should be complaining about Chantel Hebert and the Toronto Star (a very pro Liberal paper I might add)... not me.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Where did you get that from? All I did was post the headline of the newspaper story and quote part of the article. You should be complaining about Chantel Hebert and the Globe and Mail... not me.

Well, if that's ALL you did, you probably could have thrown it in your other better (re)-titled thread.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Haven't they already been recognized as a nation? I thought this happened in the CPC's first minority.

A nation within Canada I believe... which is somewhat akin to what native first nations have.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Yes

So what exactly is your commentary on the linked Toronto Star story in the OP? You claim to be opposed to the Conservative Party's policy that recognizes Quebec as a nation, so am I to assume that you support the subset of Liberal Party members who don't agree with Harper on this matter? That's doesn't jive with your recent string of Liberal-bashing posts, so I really have no idea what your position on this issue is.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Well, if that's ALL you did, you probably could have thrown it in your other better (re)-titled thread.

I'm trying to turn over a new leaf and be somewhat more balanced in my approach re discussions about the liberal party... seriously... I am trying.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well this is why these issues should be discussed and brought to the forefront. Rerun posts this thread as a way to suggest that the Liberals are morons and this will surely topple them from any former hopes for governance. The reality is that this is a very important issue, and for a lot of the reasons that you've identified.

So here's the catch. Quebec wants more power and less strings attached. They want federal money and no oversight. Hate to break it to you captain, but so does Alberta and every other province or territory. In fact the squabbles between Alberta and the feds are evident even today where they have a similar ideology and agree on a lot of issues. This is why the province is opening an office in Ottawa (the the chagrin of the federal government). There are federal and provincial issues and basically it all comes down to a power struggle on certain points.

Nope I get that, but at that point in the discussion Canada as a nation needs to redefine the concept of confederation as a whole and not give one region distinct rights and abilities over an other region. In otherwords if your going to give Quebec these nation rights within Canada you almost have to give those rights to all of the other provinices and territories because lets be frank, outside of Language, all of the provinces in this country are fairly distinct.

the easiest thing to do is to pare down the Federal government to cover national interests only and act as a coordination point for the provinces, but to remove themselves from health care, and internal provincial concerns involving resource management, trade and other areas.

Leave the federal government in charge of defense, cross provincial transpoirtaion concerns and thats about it. Let the provinces handle all taxation all social programs etc.

And leave Canada as a cooperative alliance of individual mini nations.

Originally Posted by Slava

EAs for some of the comments about "how can they ________?" Its pretty simple in a lot of ways. They can use the Canadian dollar as currency for example by just....using the Canadian dollar as currency. There is no real way to stop them, and its a non-factor. That's how Iceland could contemplate this as well. I doubt that an independent Quebec would (with pictures of the Queen and the constant reminders of Canadian greatness in general), but there's no reason it couldn't be done. It's true that they couldn't use our passports and things like that, but we've actually seen this play out peacefully before. Vaclav Havel who was a principal in the "velvet revolution" in the former Czechoslovakia managed to orchestrate a separation that was peaceful and other than the constant beat down the Slovaks endure in various sporting events from the better looking and more talented Czechs, its really not a factor!

I get that they can use our currency, heck if the American's decided to tommorrow they could adopt the Canabuck. But Quebec also wants to continue to have access to the bank of canada, all of our trade treaties etc. If Quebec were to fully seperate the first thing that would have to happen is to exclude them from Nafta til they negotiate in, remove their ability to access and mandate federal government institutions like the bank of canada and not let them use Canadian Embassies etc.

If you want to really halt the call for seperation you almost have to show Quebec that they can't stand on their own, and if they do seperate that's what they're going to have to do after paying to leave.

But they can't be a wishy washy nation of convienience.

Originally Posted by Slava

]
(In case it needs to be said, the shot against the Slovaks is a joke...although us Czechs are clearly better looking and more talented!)

Funny I was talking to a bunch of Slovaks and they said that the more handsome and talented people are on their side.