"Tough to Swallow" ~ Alberta Seniors

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

It is a medical procedure and it should be treated as such. People can have elective medical procedures performed all the time, people have the right to refuse treatment as well, should people not be given the freedom to decide if they want to end their life early. Personally I say yes but that is just a personal opinion. and we all know about opinion.

I don't see someone dying of natural causes as being a form of suicide. For example my late father died of Colon Cancer in 2000. His specialist told him there was no cure and that chemo could prolong his life by maybe a month or so but at a huge cost of enduring the side effects of that treatment. He said no to chemo and decided that quality of life was more important than quantity. His situation was alot different than a GP giving someone a lethal concoction of medicines to end his life. The latter to me is Euthenasia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/euthanas...html#section_4

But you can make up any scenario under the guise of a slippery slope. Looking at the situation logically, do I think that there is going to be a government backed kill the elderly campaign. Of course not.

We concluded that it was virtually impossible to ensure that all acts of euthanasia were truly voluntary and that any liberalisation of the law in the United Kingdom could not be abused.

We were also concerned that vulnerable people - the elderly, lonely, sick or distressed - would feel pressure, whether real or imagined, to request early death. - Lord Walton, Chairman, House of Lords Select Committee on Medical Ethics looking into euthanasia, 1993

A 1998 study found that doctors who are cost-conscious and 'practice resource-conserving medicine' are significantly more likely to write a lethal prescription for terminally-ill patients [Arch. Intern. Med., 5/11/98, p. 974]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/euthanas...html#section_4

Except the people in this thread who stated that they would rather die than live in a nursing home or people who have seen the long term impacts of dementia, or people who work daily with these people who say that they hope they go before they reach that point. Actually the more I work with people who are at that point in life, the more I realize I want to hit the eject button before I am no longer myself and can't make those decisions on my own. But I guess I am not of sound mind for thinking about it from a logical perspective like that based on my own experiences.

Saying one thing and actually following through on it are another thing. In fact I like what the quotes below have to say..

"Chochinov and colleagues found that fleeting or occasional thoughts of a desire for death were common in a study of people who were terminally ill, but few patients expressed a genuine desire for death. (Chochinov HM, Tataryn D, Clinch JJ, Dudgeon D. Will to live in the terminally ill. Lancet 1999; 354: 816-819)

They also found that the will to live fluctuates substantially in dying patients, particularly in relation to depression, anxiety, shortness of breath, and their sense of well being."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/euthanas...html#section_4

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Just a little tidbit on this... yes thats what I had in univ res. Potato's out of a bag? Yup. Chicken boiled with no taste? Yup. Described my meals for about 2 years... so I guess you could say I tried it. It was ok, I lived... I probably eat worse when I lived on my own.

At least you had a choice in the matter and could learn to cook. Seniors in LTC don't have that luxury.

As for the topic... I dunno, depends what the cost is. The #1 priority would be on health, not taste... people who have more money get better food, thats the way things are... life is unfair.

It's not about better food but rather food that is substandard. I wonder if Fred Horner and his band of merry men would eat that slop. Probably never considering the gold plated pensions they get. I'll be doing my best to make sure my mother never has to eat like that.

[Dion]

Speaking of slippery slopes...

Elderly patients condemned to early death by secret use of do not resuscitate orders:

The orders – which record an advance decision that a patient's life should not be saved if their heart stops – are routinely being applied without the knowledge of the patient or their relatives.

On one ward, one-third of DNR orders were issued without consultation with the patient or their family, according to the NHS's own records. At another hospital, junior doctors freely admitted that the forms were filled out by medical teams without the involvement of patients or relatives.

Under medical guidelines, the orders should only be issued after senior staff have discussed the matter with the patient's family. A form, signed by two doctors, is then placed in the patient's notes to record what decision was taken.

The findings emerged in spot checks of 100 hospitals undertaken by the Care Quality Commission (CQC), an official watchdog, earlier this year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/el...te-orders.html

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Dion

Speaking of slippery slopes...

Elderly patients condemned to early death by secret use of do not resuscitate orders:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/el...te-orders.html

So you are against DNR orders as well? I don't see how this relates at all to the discussion truth be told.

I am sure that people slip through the cracks and that awful things happen such as people not being properly consulted regarding a DNR order, however at the same time I have yet to see this in Canada in my actual experiences it is quite the opposite in which physicians and other health care professionals were routinely advised of a patient's code status and they had a family meeting in order to discuss the issue.

That being said there is a difference between physician assisted suicide and murder, one implies choice on the part of the patient in this case and the other does not. People have the right to chose to live and die with dignity, it isn't up to you or anyone else to tell them otherwise in my opinion.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

So you are against DNR orders as well? I don't see how this relates at all to the discussion truth be told.

I never said I was against DNR orders. The point I was trying to make is that medical facilities were found to to be in breach of medical guidance regarding consultation with families. You know, the wide spread abuse of DNR orders as it pertains to euthanasia.

I am sure that people slip through the cracks and that awful things happen such as people not being properly consulted regarding a DNR order, however at the same time I have yet to see this in Canada in my actual experiences it is quite the opposite in which physicians and other health care professionals were routinely advised of a patient's code status and they had a family meeting in order to discuss the issue.

Glad to hear that.

That being said there is a difference between physician assisted suicide and murder, one implies choice on the part of the patient in this case and the other does not. People have the right to chose to live and die with dignity, it isn't up to you or anyone else to tell them otherwise in my opinion.

Protecting those who are vulnerable to making descions unduress need protection IMO.

Would you give a patient a lethal dose of meds to kill him?

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I think the province's responsibility ends at providing nutritious food. They seem to be living up to that responsibility. If you want better food, you'll have to pay for it. If you can't afford better food I guess you're SOL. Just like every other person in the country.

Congratulations to you, sir, for all your hard-working efforts to provide yourself and your family the means to live well. By the way, reality called and it wants your sense of delusion back.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Just a little tidbit on this... yes thats what I had in univ res. Potato's out of a bag? Yup. Chicken boiled with no taste? Yup. Described my meals for about 2 years... so I guess you could say I tried it. It was ok, I lived... I probably eat worse when I lived on my own.

As for the topic... I dunno, depends what the cost is. The #1 priority would be on health, not taste... people who have more money get better food, thats the way things are... life is unfair.

So you never went out to a pub, care package from mom, or home for the holidays? Completely different when you don't have a choice. You could go out and buy fruits and vegetables...they're cheap, and if you didn't, again it's your choice. Oh and bravo, you did it for 2 years (again with nothing else right?). They have the rest of thier lives of that crap.

You can't compare a 20 year old in univesity to a an old age home. Not only are they not in the same ball park, they aren't even in the same country.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Dion

Would you give a patient a lethal dose of meds to kill him?

If it was requested by the patient and depending on the circumstances absolutely. I
think you are confusing giving the medication relative to ordering it. I wouldn't do it without a proper order by a physician after all the proper steps had been followed. I really do believe in the right of the person to die with dignity on their own terms. I agree with your earlier assertion that people should be given counselling services before and that there needs to be a standard in place, such as two independent physicians need to agree after a psychological report.

I have thought about physician assisted suicide in great deal and it isn't the most popular opinion in my profession but I believe that quality of life trumps mere quantity of life. I can't count how many people have told me that they are comfortable with death and dying and that they want to die. That is without obvious pressure from outside forces, they are just people who are near the end of their lives and aren't enjoying life due to a variety of reasons, most often they are very ill, very weak, and sadly enough very alone, particularly in the case of widows.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Zevo

So you never went out to a pub, care package from mom, or home for the holidays? Completely differnet when you don't have a choice. You could go out and buy fruits and vegetables...they're cheap, and if you didn't, again it's your choice.

You can't compare a 20 year old in univesity to a an old age home. Not only are they not in the same ball park, they aren't even in the same country.

You said "Try eating a months worth of these generic frozen meals three times a day for 30 days" ... I'm telling you I did, thats all.

(FTR: didn't have mom care packages - my mom offered, but I declined... not really a big deal to me, I can survive on substandard food. I didn't eat at bars... too $$. I didn't have a car, Safeway was a 30 min walk each way and I didn't have time to do that, ever really...)

I wasn't complaining either. Quite the opposite, actually - I'm just saying I did and it was fine.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

You said "Try eating a months worth of these generic frozen meals three times a day for 30 days" ... I'm telling you I did, thats all.

I wasn't complaining either. Quite the opposite, actually - I'm just saying I did and it was fine.

Fair enough.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

If it was requested by the patient and depending on the circumstances absolutely. I think you are confusing giving the medication relative to ordering it. I wouldn't do it without a proper order by a physician after all the proper steps had been followed. I really do believe in the right of the person to die with dignity on their own terms. I agree with your earlier assertion that people should be given counselling services before and that there needs to be a standard in place, such as two independent physicians need to agree after a psychological report.

It appears I was confusing both situations.

I have thought about physician assisted suicide in great deal and it isn't the most popular opinion in my profession but I believe that quality of life trumps mere quantity of life. I can't count how many people have told me that they are comfortable with death and dying and that they want to die. That is without obvious pressure from outside forces, they are just people who are near the end of their lives and aren't enjoying life due to a variety of reasons, most often they are very ill, very weak, and sadly enough very alone, particularly in the case of widows.

I appreciate your being frank with your responses and hearing it from someone who works in the field

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Dion

At least you had a choice in the matter and could learn to cook. Seniors in LTC don't have that luxury.

I guess thats the thing... some of us (Sliver) think that luxury of good food comes to those that have the money... and for those that don't have the money, shouldn't be complaining cause their fruits and veg weren't organic bought fresh from the farmers market.

FTR: I don't really have an opinion, but I did feel slightly like those interviewed felt a little entitled. The main parts that caught my ear was the part about preservatives and slower healing times from wounds due to malnutrition... otherwise I felt like it was 10 minutes complaining that their food didn't taste good. Could be a communication problem though, I don't have all (or any) of the facts.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I guess thats the thing... some of us (Sliver) think that luxury of good food comes to those that have the money... and for those that don't have the money, shouldn't be complaining cause their fruits and veg weren't organic bought fresh from the farmers market.

My volunteer time was before AHS went with this current plan of food production. It wasn't luxury by any standards and the food was prepaired on site by cooks. I also ate alot of that food as it given to me free as a benefit for my volunteer hours. It was very basic dishes that most would cook and eat. This was in both govt run LTC's and private for profit places. Now they are being served the equivlent of frozen TV dinners that have been reheated in the oven. Corners were cut when it comes to food prep and seniors are bearing the brunt of it.

Why change a system that was working fine?

[Phanuthier]

I see... I don't know the whole story. Budget cuts I guess?

Again, WRT taste... basic I get, but taste of TV dinner, I don't see that as a big deal. I just felt all this complaining about taste made me feel those interviewed felt a little entitled, but again that could be a communication problem. If they would have given solid facts about nutrition, I think that would garner more sympathy. But thats just me.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Dion

My volunteer time was before AHS went with this current plan of food production. It wasn't luxury by any standards and the food was prepaired on site by cooks. I also ate alot of that food as it given to me free as a benefit for my volunteer hours. It was very basic dishes that most would cook and eat. This was in both govt run LTC's and private for profit places. Now they are being served the equivlent of frozen TV dinners that have been reheated in the oven. Corners were cut when it comes to food prep and seniors are bearing the brunt of it.

Why change a system that was working fine?

They wanted consistency across the province. Maybe you volunteered at a home with a particularly good meal program. That doesn't mean they're all good. Nutrition is the top priority and it's awesome AHS recognizes that. I'd be worried if they were serving chicken fingers and fries...the fact that they're getting well-balanced meals is a testament to the system.

If these people are so poor and alone that nobody will bring them fresh food or different food to their tastes and they can't pay somebody to do it, they should be incredibly grateful they're one of the few human beings to ever exist in a place where they wouldn't be foresaken. We give them everything they need and try to cover some of their wants, too. That's pretty fataing cool of us.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Slava

So you saying the Progressive Liberals won't nourish people is dealing with the topic? You and I are on the same side here as far as I can see, but that's not dealing with anything. That's basically my point in all of this though, there is no question this should be examined and fixed, but instead we have politicians trying to score a few points. Its sad and pathetic really.

Just so Im clear on this...from here on, when the opposition or anyone else in a party (in a party sytem of gonerning) actually questions the job that the sitting government is doing on a particular issue...we shall now consider it grandstanding and politicizing?

If true the next time an opposition MP says anything about anything the PC's do federally, I can consider it nothing but poiliticizing the topic and just "trying to score points" and you will label it "sad and pathetic"?

Or is this just a double standard because its the WR?

[TurnedTheCorner]

[Slava]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Just so Im clear on this...from here on, when the opposition or anyone else in a party (in a party sytem of gonerning) actually questions the job that the sitting government is doing on a particular issue...we shall now consider it grandstanding and politicizing?

If true the next time an opposition MP says anything about anything the PC's do federally, I can consider it nothing but poiliticizing the topic and just "trying to score points" and you will label it "sad and pathetic"?

Or is this just a double standard because its the WR?

Well you tell me; if the NDP were to come out federally today and say we need to cut taxes to spur growth, would you call them on the obvious about-face or laud them because you agree? I know I would have some questions about whether they were trying to score points on something that they otherwise had no intention of actually implementing just a few short weeks ago.

Like I say, I agree that something ought to he done here, so my questions aren't with the Wildrose. I do question the motive though. For a party that advocates private health and a "get what you pay for" ideology everywhere else it seems incongruent with their other policies.

The other question I have is whether I'm really asking that much of our opposition party here? I'm saying that they should provide a rational solution to the problem. They don't like the current situation, and thats fair. I happen to think that not many do (although on this board there are a few). Opposition parties shouldn't only come out and say "that's bad". That's the part that is pure grandstanding.

[Hack&Lube]

We basically bring my Grandma home cooked food all the time as we've tried the food at her place and it's pretty awful and seems nutritiously suspect. Unfortunately, she needs the nurses and daily dialysis there so she has to be in LTC.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The treatment of vulnerable people in government-operated facilities is out of bounds?

If I felt that the Wildrose felt an ounce of actual compassion for the Seniors, I'd feel differently. Instead they try to score cheap political points by jumping into bed with the AUPE. Talk about politics making strange bedfellows.