Edmonton teacher suspended for giving zero's

[Yeah_Baby]

Basically being able to assign a grade of zero may allow students to scrape on by. They some assignments, and those get averaged out with the zeros. So the student may be able to pass with a low grade.

By giving an incomplete, this forces the student to actually do the work to earn the right to move on. It has nothing to do with 'Kids being entitled these days'. Nor is it "When I was a kid my Dad made me a man by making sure I got a zero when I didn't do my work". It is actually about holding students accountable.

[Svensational]

Originally Posted by SebC

You go into school for the benefit of your future. You come onto these forums for the same?

[dubc80]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Basically being able to assign a grade of zero may allow students to scrape on by. They some assignments, and those get averaged out with the zeros. So the student may be able to pass with a low grade.

By giving an incomplete, this forces the student to actually do the work to earn the right to move on. It has nothing to do with 'Kids being entitled these days'. Nor is it "When I was a kid my Dad made me a man by making sure I got a zero when I didn't do my work". It is actually about holding students accountable.

... but doesn't this mean that there is no such thing as a due date?

Man, school has changed a lot!

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

When Zeros are added into an average which includes work done. It is essentially giving credit for work that was not finished. MEV does not give credit for work not done. Students will be satisfied with a 62% as a final grade with Zeros averaged into it than a of grade MEV. MEV means you don't have a grade, this should give the students all the essentive they need to hand-in missing work.

I am at a lost here, summarizing the thread from the "boo no zero policy" side were arguing that it doesn't keep students accountable. Now upon having a better understanding of it, they now feel its to harsh?

I just think it is nonsense regardless of how it affects a student. A not-so-smart student may get an MEV rather than a 38% and a smart student may get an MEV rather than a 62%. So they both get MEV and they both redo the class.

If I get 62% while factoring in a bunch of lazy zeroes, good for me. If I didn't understand the material there is no way that I could make up for a bunch of zeroes. If I'm super lazy and can't make up for it or if I truly don't get it, I get a bunch of zeroes, end up at 38% and fail. How is this so bad? The accountability falls firmly on the student who will make decisions based on their aptitude and attitude.

An MEV would do nothing except provide an avenue to defer responsibility for realistic negative outcomes or unrealistic positive outcomes from student effort to teachers' subjective observations or application of the concept.

Regardless, if a student wrote a test and got no answers correct, what mark would he get? Or do we still give tests in schools these days?

[CASe333]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

If the MEV's are showing up for Major and Minor Assignments (Or Summative assignments) Those MEV's could lead to them having to retake the course. But it really is dependent on teacher discretion.

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

I am at a lost here, summarizing the thread from the "boo no zero policy" side were arguing that it doesn't keep students accountable. Now upon having a better understanding of it, they now feel its to harsh?

No, I still think that although in theory it makes sense, that this is not how we should be teaching students at the high school level. Like so many have pointed out this is not how university works and to me its setting students up for failure if they chose to go that route. Time management and meeting deadlines is one of the skills that needs to be taught in high school if the student is going to have success in post-secondary education or life in general.

You confirmed what I thought, that each teacher has discretion on how many MEV marks are allowed. This leads to the possibility of inflation of some students marks (ie. skipping only a few of the harder assignments), favoritism (ie. Student A is star of soccer team and "very busy" is allowed to miss more assignments than student B). I also think its a slippery slope. Once you know a teacher is easy with respect to the number of MEV assignments missed why wouldn't you take advantage of them if you are lazy? Also what is to stop the student from cheating on assignments? I could easily miss a math assignment and then after a couple weeks get my friends "marked" assignment to cheat off. Might not work on say an essay assignment but there are many cases when this would be very easy to get away with.

I'm of the camp that really doesn't think that this is that big of a deal especially now that I understand it a little better so thanks for that. However, I still think its a move in the wrong direction, at least for high school students. The following example illustrates why I think the no zero policy can fail in the real world (quotes taken from two articles on the teacher who was fired in Edmonton journal):

"Dorval gives the example of a student who transferred into his class this year, having done only six out of 15 tests and assignments at his old school. His old teacher, following the no zero rule, had given him a 63 average, the average of his six completed assignments. Dorval told the student he would now be getting zeros if he didn’t do the work.

“Since he’s been with me he’s done seven out of seven,” Dorval says, adding the student was also arranging to do the work he had earlier missed."

and....

"This province would benefit if public schools focused more, not less, on students getting their work done well and on time. I’ll leave the last word to NAIT instructor Tom Lincoln: “The majority of students we’re getting at NAIT, who primarily come from Edmonton Public Schools, are completely unprepared for the rigours of post-secondary education. Our warning to them at the beginning of first semester, that a late assignment is automatically assigned a zero, often goes unheeded. Some of our students — I’m sorry I can’t quantify this – simply cannot believe that there are consequences for not handing in an assignment. This is the policy of my program; we are preparing students for a very unforgiving industry that is deadline driven and does not tolerate non-performance.”"

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by CASe333

No, I still think that although in theory it makes sense, that this is not how we should be teaching students at the high school level. Like so many have pointed out this is not how university works and to me its setting students up for failure if they chose to go that route. Time management and meeting deadlines is one of the skills that needs to be taught in high school if the student is going to have success in post-secondary education or life in general.

Um... in almost all my undergrad classes, assignments were worth 5-10%, labs 10-15% and exams worth the rest. Look at the library at any time other then exams, then look the library at exam times... students have a gift of working the system and not opening a textbook till 24 hrs before an exam.

I found HS to be way more strict about deadlines then univ.

[CASe333]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Um... in almost all my undergrad classes, assignments were worth 5-10%, labs 10-15% and exams worth the rest. Look at the library at any time other then exams, then look the library at exam times... students have a gift of working the system and not opening a textbook till 24 hrs before an exam.

I found HS to be way more strict about deadlines then univ.

I see your point and will admit that I'm probably being a bit over dramatic to try and get my point across. I guess it also depends on what you define as being a success. Missing out on 10% of the easy assignments and labs in university means you now can get a max of 90%. Lets say you would have been a 90% student if you had done everything on time but because you are lazy you would now get 81%. This kind of drop could mean the difference from receiving scholarships such as NSERC. To be successful I would argue that the student should achieve his potential and not just get by. Alternatively if you are barely passing then missing a few of those easy assignments could be the difference between failing and passing.

Also pointing out that current university students are already lazy and have a gift of working the system just serves to prove my point that we shouldn't be moving towards an even more forgiving system in high school. It will only make it that much worse in my opinion. Your contention that HS was more strict than university probably really depends on what program you are in along with a bunch of other factors. I can say that in my experience deadlines were much more strict in university.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by CASe333

I see your point and will admit that I'm probably being a bit over dramatic to try and get my point across. I guess it also depends on what you define as being a success. Missing out on 10% of the easy assignments and labs in university means you now can get a max of 90%. Lets say you would have been a 90% student if you had done everything on time but because you are lazy you would now get 81%. This kind of drop could mean the difference from receiving scholarships such as NSERC. To be successful I would argue that the student should achieve his potential and not just get by. Alternatively if you are barely passing then missing a few of those easy assignments could be the difference between failing and passing.

Actually a really good cheat for the system is to do half of the assignment (the easy half) and shoot for the 60-70%. To do an assignment, for me, was maybe about 3 hrs per assign and try to get 90-100%. However, if I just do the easy portion of each question, I could spend 30 minutes and get 60-70%. Really, univ is not your best comparison. However, when you go into a work place, habits are naturally corrected - I think a lot of students just conform to their peers and suddenly you start meeting deadlines.

Also pointing out that current university students are already lazy and have a gift of working the system just serves to prove my point that we shouldn't be moving towards an even more forgiving system in high school. It will only make it that much worse in my opinion. Your contention that HS was more strict than university probably really depends on what program you are in along with a bunch of other factors.

Perhaps. I was only every in engineering, friends only with engineers. You are right that you can work the system... but every system has its flaws and its merits. There is no utopia of breeding hard working horses... I think both sides have its merits, but too many people are quick to discount the alternative because they're oldies to their "back in my day, we walked 10 miles in snow UP hill..."

I've seen lots of different systems. In some American univ, you need over 50% in exams, over 50% in assignments and over 80% in exams (average) to pass a coarse, in addition to your overall grade.... if you fail any of those 1/3, you fail the class. I think that has its merits. I think the MEV has its own merits (but sounds costly to me, if you give them a chance to make up?). I'm just saying... none of us really know the data to make an informed opinion on what is good and what is bad. Without the data and all the info, how can you possibly make such a strong opinion? All you can do, is talk about the gold old days, I guess...

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Basically being able to assign a grade of zero may allow students to scrape on by. They some assignments, and those get averaged out with the zeros. So the student may be able to pass with a low grade.

By giving an incomplete, this forces the student to actually do the work to earn the right to move on. It has nothing to do with 'Kids being entitled these days'. Nor is it "When I was a kid my Dad made me a man by making sure I got a zero when I didn't do my work". It is actually about holding students accountable.

While that sounds like a great system to get kids to do their work, I really did not get that impression from the article.

Seems there are a bunch of kids who missed assignments and refused to complete them. End of the year rolls around and since we all know that kids can't fail either, they want to pass the course with those MEVs simply ignored and an average taken based on the stuff they did complete.

So instead of the MEVs being effective, they allow the students to have a scapegoat and force the teacher to pass them based only on the average of the assignments they chose to do.

The teacher stood up to them and gave them zeros.*

*I didn't read the article, that's just what I'm assuming is the case.

[CASe333]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

none of us really know the data to make an informed opinion on what is good and what is bad. Without the data and all the info, how can you possibly make such a strong opinion? All you can do, is talk about the gold old days, I guess...

I agree, without any data this is an argument just based on people's opinions. Like I said in a previous post, I really don't think that in the big picture this is the end of the world. Sure it may negatively affect some students but on the other hand it still may be for the overall good. If the numbers proved that, then I wouldn't have any problem with this being implicated in the public system. At this point there doesn't seem to be enough empirical evidence either way so why does it make sense to force this system on every teacher in Edmonton?

I really don't think that my argument has anything to do with the "good old days". For the record I'm just fresh out of university (undergrad, phd and then postdoc). I would say that by picking and choosing which questions to answer to get a decent mark for minimal effort is good time management if you use that time wisely. Its a lot different than the no zero policy where the student doesn't feel like getting it done and is allowed to do the assignment 3 weeks later though.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

While that sounds like a great system to get kids to do their work, I really did not get that impression from the article.

Seems there are a bunch of kids who missed assignments and refused to complete them. End of the year rolls around and since we all know that kids can't fail either, they want to pass the course with those MEVs simply ignored and an average taken based on the stuff they did complete.

So instead of the MEVs being effective, they allow the students to have a scapegoat and force the teacher to pass them based only on the average of the assignments they chose to do.

The teacher stood up to them and gave them zeros.*

*I didn't read the article, that's just what I'm assuming is the case.

We're talking about the policy from a pedagogical standpoint. Not based on the article you didn't read.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

We're talking about the policy from a pedagogical standpoint. Not based on the article you didn't read.

Which is great and all but what's the point if in practice they just complain their way out of its intended use?

You said in the post I quoted that it forces students to actually do their work. If we're only having a theoretical discussion, fine, that seems like a great tool to avoid giving zeros and help the students. But if in practice is simply results in the kids complaining until they get their way, it isn't much use and doesn't help at all to hold them accountable.

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

I've tried my best to give a clear meaning of what the "No Zero Policy" is. I'm glad that some of you at least are achknowleging that it isnt just giving students a "free pass" and that they are actually accountable for their work.

Zeros are assigning a mark for work that was never completed, thus giving an inaccurate assessment of students grades, AND allows students to squeeze by without doing work. MEV does not give students this luxery. MEV MAKES the students accountable for their work.

The general concensus i've received from the CP community on this is that a student's ability to meet deadlines is more important than anything else being learnt in schools. The issues most of you are having with the "No Zero Policy" has nothing to do with the students learning and everything to do with kids being able to meet deadlines.

"Look Mom! I finally learned how to isolate X in an algebraic equation"
"It doesn't matter what you learned, you didnt meet that deadline and that is far more important that what you learned"

The primary goal of schools is to LEARN! They have the rest of their lives to meet deadlines.

I would be ecstatic if one of my underacheiving kids came up to me and said "Here, I did this assignment on the weekend, i'm sorry its late". So much lip-service is paid from kids wanting a second chance, but so few actually come true on it.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

I've tried my best to give a clear meaning of what the "No Zero Policy" is. I'm glad that some of you at least are achknowleging that it isnt just giving students a "free pass" and that they are actually accountable for their work.

Zeros are assigning a mark for work that was never completed, thus giving an inaccurate assessment of students grades, AND allows students to squeeze by without doing work. MEV does not give students this luxery. MEV MAKES the students accountable for their work.

The general concensus i've received from the CP community on this is that a student's ability to meet deadlines is more important than anything else being learnt in schools. The issues most of you are having with the "No Zero Policy" has nothing to do with the students learning and everything to do with kids being able to meet deadlines.

"Look Mom! I finally learned how to isolate X in an algebraic equation"
"It doesn't matter what you learned, you didnt meet that deadline and that is far more important that what you learned"

The primary goal of schools is to LEARN! They have the rest of their lives to meet deadlines.

I would be ecstatic if one of my underacheiving kids came up to me and said "Here, I did this assignment on the weekend, i'm sorry its late". So much lip-service is paid from kids wanting a second chance, but so few actually come true on it.

First off thanks for the PM, sorry i did not get back to you.

Second, thanks for voicing you opinion/thoughts. I am not sure agree with them, but it's nice to have an exchange of ideas.

My thoughts are that part of learning is learning the repercussions of your actions or lack of actions. Honest question. Does this approach help students in Uni? Profs couldn't care less if students hand in work. For students not going to post secondary, does this help them in the work force? Do they have an understanding of expectations/requirements and what it means to full fill those expectations?

Thanks

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

My thoughts are that part of learning is learning the repercussions of your actions or lack of actions. Honest question. Does this approach help students in Uni? Profs couldn't care less if students hand in work. For students not going to post secondary, does this help them in the work force? Do they have an understanding of expectations/requirements and what it means to full fill those expectations?

Thanks

One horrid university semester, one prick of a prof, and $5000 down the drain will have a larger impact on any kid than a zero in highschool will.

I cannot count how many times i've heard the "This wont fly in university speech". Because in any given class, that statement is only being made to 30% of the kids the rest? Doesnt apply.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

One horrid university semester, one prick of a prof, and $5000 down the drain will have a larger impact on any kid than a zero in highschool will.

I am not a teacher, nor could I ever be a teacher.

But I would hope that teachers would set the goal of not having their ex-students flunking out of Uni.

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I am not a teacher, nor could I ever be a teacher.

But I would hope that teachers would set the goal of not having their ex-students flunking out of Uni.

Not the goal, but you can only say so much, some buy in, some dont....some need the "real world" experience to open their eyes.

I've heard the following statements....

"I'm going to take business at U of C(i'm in edm area remember) instead of U of A cause my family knows one of the profs....it will be a breeze"

"I've seen every season of law & order, I think i will make a good lawyer"

"Business degree? Why would I need that, I'm just going to take over my aunt's dance studio"

These are kids that you can try to reason with all you want, but some of them need the reality check....the reality check that wont happen within the confinds of a school

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I am not a teacher, nor could I ever be a teacher.

But I would hope that teachers would set the goal of not having their ex-students flunking out of Uni.

I think the best thing to prepare kids for univ is : keep an open mind, don't let your highs get to high, don't let your low's get too low. You could say that starts from a HS level, that you might hit the curb a few times but thats why you are learning and making mistakes now rather then later when it really does matter.

Funny this thread, a lot of the older gen (not all, in fairness) are doing the exact opposite (to a story that I think not all of us have all the information to make definitive statements)

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

These are kids that you can try to reason with all you want, but some of them need the reality check....the reality check that wont happen within the confinds of a school

Well I can tell you a part of me making my decision was, I wanted better weather.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

First off thanks for the PM, sorry i did not get back to you.

Second, thanks for voicing you opinion/thoughts. I am not sure agree with them, but it's nice to have an exchange of ideas.

My thoughts are that part of learning is learning the repercussions of your actions or lack of actions. Honest question. Does this approach help students in Uni? Profs couldn't care less if students hand in work. For students not going to post secondary, does this help them in the work force? Do they have an understanding of expectations/requirements and what it means to full fill those expectations?

Thanks

I actually think it does have a lot of bearing on the real world.

If I don't get something done one day at work (for whatever reason) I don't automatically get fired and need to start looking for a new job. If something is late, i face the consequences of not having it done, could be financial by not getting a raise, or losing a bonus. It could mean overtime to make up for it or something along those lines.

Whatever I needed to do, still needs to get done and I can't just 'not do it' and the task just goes away.