Edmonton teacher suspended for giving zero's

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

If I can include another idiocracy reference, I feel like joe trying to explain how plants need water to grow. For one moment, please open your minds...

Here is a picture of my argument for those visual learners.


Everyone continues to hold the position that the "no zero policy" is awarding work and marks for work that isn't done. You believe that it is not keeping the students accountable for their work. It is doing the opposite. Take a look at the picture. Both Phaneufier and Wormius have the exact same grades....the difference? Wormius is being awarded zeros where Phaneufier is receiving MEV. As you see, the final grade for Wormius with his zeros is a passing 50.2%. Does he have zeros? Yes. Is he getting credit for work not done? YES! If anything, handing out zeros is giving marks for incomplete work, not the "no zero policy".

By handing out zeros, the teacher is essentially giving a baseball player credit for an a bat when the at bat wasn't taken.

For any of you that attended Bishop Carroll High School, you were in a no zero policy environment. For those not familair with BCHS, they are a work at your own pace school. Each 5 credit course was worth 30 units. Some tests and assignments were worth 1 unit, some were worth 4. To get your 5 credits for English, you had to complete all 30 units. You would only receive the units upon passing the test or assignment. You were unable togo write a test, bomb it, and still get credit for the units. If you failed a test, you were not given credit for the test, and to rewrite it, you had to show the teacher you completed the work. If you were a grade 12 and had 27 of 30 units by the diploma deadline, you were not writing the diploma. You would have to wait til next year/semester and finish those last 3 units.

What is frustrating about the "no zero policy" is that the general public and media looks at it as being ridiculous without actually understanding the policy. The "No Zero Policy" keeps students accountable for their grades, the entitlement comes from

"I have a 80 in the course, I can get away with bombing a test or two"

The teachers must be held accountable to follow through with the "no zero policy" for it to work effectively.

***this was composed via phone, didn't really have a chance to edit it

[Daradon]

For any of you that attended Bishop Carroll High School, you were in a no zero policy environment. For those not familair with BCHS, they are a work at your own pace school. Each 5 credit course was worth 30 units. Some tests and assignments were worth 1 unit, some were worth 4. To get your 5 credits for English, you had to complete all 30 units. You would only receive the units upon passing the test or assignment. You were unable togo write a test, bomb it, and still get credit for the units. If you failed a test, you were not given credit for the test, and to rewrite it, you had to show the teacher you completed the work. If you were a grade 12 and had 27 of 30 units by the diploma deadline, you were not writing the diploma. You would have to wait til next year/semester and finish those last 3 units.

What is frustrating about the "no zero policy" is that the general public and media looks at it as being ridiculous without actually understanding the policy. The "No Zero Policy" keeps students accountable for their grades, the entitlement comes from

"I have a 80 in the course, I can get away with bombing a test or two"

The teachers must be held accountable to follow through with the "no zero policy" for it to work effectively.[/QUOTE]


Did you teach there?

I got a few zeros...

Jerk.


Quotes got killed. Probably cause my teachers passed my internet course.

[Phanuthier]

I think thats a great system FlamesFanEDM... but if it were long standing over (say, 3 years) would that be a big financial burden?

[HOOT]

haha Phanuthier failed!

"I have a 80 in the course, I can get away with bombing a test or two"

My mom has told a story that I would go through the class assignments (this was probably elementry school) before the start of the year and pick and choose which ones I had to do to pass. I can see how that would be a problem because I remember friends doing the same where they would skip a test/assignment because they knew the small amount it would change their grade.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

For any of you that attended Bishop Carroll High School, you were in a no zero policy environment. For those not familair with BCHS, they are a work at your own pace school. Each 5 credit course was worth 30 units. Some tests and assignments were worth 1 unit, some were worth 4. To get your 5 credits for English, you had to complete all 30 units. You would only receive the units upon passing the test or assignment. You were unable togo write a test, bomb it, and still get credit for the units. If you failed a test, you were not given credit for the test, and to rewrite it, you had to show the teacher you completed the work. If you were a grade 12 and had 27 of 30 units by the diploma deadline, you were not writing the diploma. You would have to wait til next year/semester and finish those last 3 units.

I graduated from Bishop Carroll and hence why I have first hand experience on why it's absolutely ######ed to foist any part of it upon the entire populace:

If you were someone who was of average intelligence but needed to be kicked in the ass to work, you eventually ended up at schools that would give you a zero if you didn't do work like Grandin, Mary's or Francis. Bishop Carroll's graduation rate should really be measured by how big it's grade 10 class was two years prior comparing it to the size of it's graduating class. So as far as avoiding the demotivation of the crappy kids, well they ended up out of the school before the end of grade 10 so it certainly didn't help them one bit.

If you were intelligent and motivated, you were able to explore new possibilities of extra-curricular activities that were allowed to you by the amount of time you had banked by the end of the year by working ahead of the scheduled pace. Ultimately it worked out pretty nice for these people, and really they would have thrived anywhere.

If you fall in the third category of being rather intelligent but somewhat unmotivated, you discovered how little effort it really takes to get by in High School, graduated with 100 credits on the dot (Maybe with a little help from summer school and maybe from those BS easy 'get 15 units and 3 high school credits in a day' courses) and participated in absolutely nothing extra credit. These people faired worse than had they just went to Mary's, Francis, or Grandin because ultimately the world demands of you not that you complete things eventually on your own time, but rather that you perform tasks in realtime with real deadlines and failing to meet them is ultimately like getting a zero. These people were learning this in first year university instead of in High School, probably didn't help them one bit.

[CASe333]

I'm not a teacher so would like something clarified. If you have a few assignments that are marked MEV does that automatically mean you will be given a final grade MEV and have to repeat the class? In that case missing an assignment and getting the MEV grade seems worse than a 0. Or does the teacher look at each student and decide what is not an acceptable amount of MEVs? What I want to know is it possible to give the kid a final grade despite having a couple minor assignments marked as MEV?

[CASe333]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

By handing out zeros, the teacher is essentially giving a baseball player credit for an a bat when the at bat wasn't taken.

Except the kid was given a chance to do the assignment and just didn't do it. So its more like they were given the opportunity to bat but just didn't bother to step up to the plate. Unless the pitcher really sucks they will be struck out. Or turning your analogy around, I would say that by handing out MEV grades is essentially giving a baseball player a "walk" when he was given a chance to bat but wouldn't even step up to the plate while the pitches were thrown.

[Flashpoint]

Edmonton has schools?

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

If I can include another idiocracy reference, I feel like joe trying to explain how plants need water to grow. For one moment, please open your minds...

Duh, okay, here's my closed-minded thoughts. If I'm Phanuthier, I'm f'in cheesed off, because I've demonstrated an aptitude to the subject based on my pretty dang decent marks in every other unit, but some condescending a-hole teacher decided that, rather than give me a zero and let me deal with it, they're going to give me some subjective "MEV" that pretty much ruins all the decent mark I've been putting up and forces me to go through this hairy-fairy social study again. Give me my damn zero and I'll deal with it already.

Oh well, at least I can complain to my folks that the teacher wasn't observational enough to recognize my 10% understanding of the unit and therefore screwed me with a MEV, whatever the hell that is. 10% on each of those MEV units and I'm golden!

Okay, how is this better?

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by CASe333

Except the kid was given a chance to do the assignment and just didn't do it. So its more like they were given the opportunity to bat but just didn't bother to step up to the plate. Unless the pitcher really sucks they will be struck out. Or turning your analogy around, I would say that by handing out MEV grades is essentially giving a baseball player a "walk" when he was given a chance to bat but wouldn't even step up to the plate while the pitches were thrown.

In Little League if you don't step up to the plate in an appropriate amount of time, the team can begin pitching whether you're there or not.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Cowboy : I'm no teacher or parent. I'm just saying I get where they're coming from. I'm about a decade off from said targeted audience, but I know a lot of cases (myself included) where getting a low great acted more as a de-motivator then a motivator. Similar to money being a great de-motivator, but a terrible motivator, marks are the same thing. On the statistical level, the ones you see who will rally from it are on the lower % of the bell curve. What is the goal of your education system, to make sure yourself feel honest or to try and produce a more educated and productive society? Maybe you are the former, but I am the ladder.

CaptainCrunch : I got to say, I love your romantic stories about how you were once a bad ass rebel, but your dad sat your on your lap and goes "Son . . . I believe in you" and you turned into such a great thing. Honestly its awesome. There are a few superhero's like you I guess... but the non-0 topic discussed would not be for superhero's like you; it would be targeted to the lower performers that you don't want to be an anchor.

And, I didn't say that you should reward the lower/lazy performers.... I don't know where you read that in my post, maybe you were distracted by the reminiscing of you sitting on your dad's lap or something. I'm just saying I get the argument of why you don't give a kid a crippling zero.... honestly I don't really have a say in which way the system should go, I don't have the data and all the knowledge to make a informed opinion. I'm just saying whatever system put in should be geared towards maximizing the potential while hopefully still encouraging the top tier to succeed, however that is done.

Um obviously my old man didn't believe in me, if he had believed in me, he would have let them pass me because I was so awesome that I would breeze through the next level with no need to learn a work ethic.

And honestly ego aside, I had a tough old man, he didn't coddle me, and when I screwed up he didn't sit there and murmur its ok you just need a break here's a hug. He certainly wasn't my best friend and there were a lot of years where we had a real tense to non existant relation, My mother was certainly not my or my sisters best friends. they worked endless hours to keep us housed and schooled and clothed.

He hammered the crap out of me, and I'm pretty fracking proud of how I turned out. I keep hearing remarks like I hope you don't think that the way you were raised was normal. But I have to plainly state that among the people that I grew up around, and my cousins and others that was the way you were raised.

We didn't have teachers that gave us a break, if we needed help we had to ask for help, they didn't sit there and approach you. They didn't forgive late or missing homework.

Making an estimate on a kids knowledge base for their grade when they don't hand in an assignment is a joke, giving a kid multiple chances to make up an assignment or a test is a joke if they don't make an effort to give a sincere effort to make it up.

These kids are high school students, period, they're on the cusp of adult hood and coddling them at that point is pretty much going to ruin them for any post secondary education, or any job.

There are no incompletes in life, well there are but nobody gives a ####e about your excuses.

I honestly do look at this generation as the butter soft generation, I think a lot of parents have decided that they need to make every decision for their kid, wrap them in bubble wrap and then rage at anyone else that tries to make their kids take responsibility for their action.

You shouldn't have given my little johnny a zero, he deserves something just for showing up.

I don't care what the jury says about my son who beat that other kid half to death he's not a bully, he's my little snookum puddum

He's not fat and if he wants to play skull crusher 3 for 4 hours at least he's good at something and he's out of my hair.

35 percent of students drop out of their first year of university, I'm betting the majority of them because they weren't properly prepared by the education system.

[Svensational]

I'm not bothering to read the entire thread. My thoughts on this are simple: Do the required work, put forth actual effort, and bam.. shouldn't be an issue.

Kids are whiney lil !@#$'s nowadays.

[Phanuthier]

Again CaptainCrunch, I understand you are a superhero and everything, but recognize not everybody is like you. Its not a matter of how badly you can run someone through your military bootcamp lifestyle to make them CaptainCrunch hardman, its about what ends up being best for society. And once again, I'm not saying one is better then the other (I grew up in a bootcamp like attitude, my dad beat my ass if I didn't get good marks) so I get it... I'm not even saying its wrong, and I probably think thats what should be done cause thats how I grew up... I'm just saying I understand where FlamesFanEDM is coming from.

PS : as for 35% dropout... I don't know if you went to university, but when I did (half a decade ago) half of the dropouts were lazy slackers, but half the ones passing were lazy slackers who worked the system. Half the drop outs were honest hardworking students but realized the system of learning was way different in univ and didn't learn to play the system. Or in grad school, most of the dropouts I know of either dropped out midway through cause of academia politics or personal loss.

PS 2 : I do agree kids are soft these days. Reading CP, and a lot of 20's-50's, I'd say adults are butter soft too. So, I'm guessing they were probably soft as kids.... or the end result is, not much has changed and we've always been butter soft as a society.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Svensational

I'm not bothering to read the entire thread. My thoughts on this are simple: Do the required work, put forth actual effort, and bam.. shouldn't be an issue.

Kids are whiney lil !@#$'s nowadays.

[Thunderball]

Just to sort of build on what Cowboy and Daradon were saying about Bishop Carroll, a school like that doesn't need to give out zeros, because they don't have to keep students like most other public high schools. If someone doesnt want to do all their work, they get booted "down" to McNally or Grandin or Francis. If someone can't do their work fast enough, be that because of incompletes, failed grades or otherwise, again, the boot.

I never got a zero at Carroll, but it was possible in some classes to get a unit for attending the seminar, but a zero for a grade. It was also very possible in some courses to have a score under 50 and not have to re-write, if your average was high enough.

As far as I remember, in Grade 9, we had to apply to be accepted into Bishop Carroll, since we by default went to Bishop Grandin. I don't know if that's changed, but that's how it was then. The kids who don't want to do their assignments either won't be accepted there, or, like Cowboy said, disappeared around January.

I understand the logic behind incompletes v. zeros, but I think teachers should be given broad discretion to use whatever reasonable evaluation they see fit. If a student's work has no merit, or no existence, I see no reason why a zero can't be awarded. Suspending a teacher for a different way of holding students accountable is wrong.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Honestly I screwed around one year in school, and they call my parents in for a conference, and the teacher gave the whole spiel that could do so much better if I applied myself and that my grades were below my potential, but I was still passing, and my old man looked at me, looked at my mom and looked at the teacher and said, fail em, he'll do the grade again.

And that's what happened, and after that there was never a question of getting assignments done or studying for tests.

Yes, but look at the miserable ####### that you've become. Completed high school assignments, but at what cost!?!

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

Originally Posted by CASe333

I'm not a teacher so would like something clarified. If you have a few assignments that are marked MEV does that automatically mean you will be given a final grade MEV and have to repeat the class? In that case missing an assignment and getting the MEV grade seems worse than a 0. Or does the teacher look at each student and decide what is not an acceptable amount of MEVs? What I want to know is it possible to give the kid a final grade despite having a couple minor assignments marked as MEV?

If the MEV's are showing up for Major and Minor Assignments (Or Summative assignments) Those MEV's could lead to them having to retake the course. But it really is dependent on teacher discretion.

MEV is worse than a zero. Zeros still give credit for incomplete work, MEV or "Incomplete" does not. It forces the student to actually do the work before passing or moving on.

I do not teach at BCHS, but went there as a student. For the most part, units were not collected on failing grades. Some teachers were a bit more slack than others on this though...

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

Originally Posted by CASe333

Except the kid was given a chance to do the assignment and just didn't do it. So its more like they were given the opportunity to bat but just didn't bother to step up to the plate. Unless the pitcher really sucks they will be struck out. Or turning your analogy around, I would say that by handing out MEV grades is essentially giving a baseball player a "walk" when he was given a chance to bat but wouldn't even step up to the plate while the pitches were thrown.

I dont understand the analogy turned around....

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

The concept behind it is that a Zero does not accurately assess what the student does or doesn't know. It just reflects that a student did not complete his/her work. Teachers are responsible to grade according to the Alberta Curriculum and how well they know the material.

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

If the MEV's are showing up for Major and Minor Assignments (Or Summative assignments) Those MEV's could lead to them having to retake the course. But it really is dependent on teacher discretion.

MEV is worse than a zero. Zeros still give credit for incomplete work, MEV or "Incomplete" does not. It forces the student to actually do the work before passing or moving on.

Okay, so zeroes should be eliminated because they only reflect that the student didn't complete their work. But MEVs are better because they are used to show the student has demonstrated 0% evidence of having understood, apparently by not completing their work.

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

When Zeros are added into an average which includes work done. It is essentially giving credit for work that was not finished. MEV does not give credit for work not done. Students will be satisfied with a 62% as a final grade with Zeros averaged into it than a of grade MEV. MEV means you don't have a grade, this should give the students all the essentive they need to hand-in missing work.

I am at a lost here, summarizing the thread from the "boo no zero policy" side were arguing that it doesn't keep students accountable. Now upon having a better understanding of it, they now feel its to harsh?