Attawapiskat chief wants more cash? You don't say!

[Stranger]

It must be obvious to both sides that changes must be made. Too bad it is political suicide to bring this up.

[WhiteTiger]

I would like to see some of these original treaties that the Canadian people are being held to. What in the world did we actually agree to? Take their land and care for them for the next 300 years? Pay them X amount of money? What exactly are the terms, and what needs to be done to fulfill them and get these horrible contracts 'off the books' as it were?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

I would like to see some of these original treaties that the Canadian people are being held to. What in the world did we actually agree to? Take their land and care for them for the next 300 years? Pay them X amount of money? What exactly are the terms, and what needs to be done to fulfill them and get these horrible contracts 'off the books' as it were?

Yes essentially our forefathers did take their land and in return agreed to provide for them, there is no way to get these contracts 'off the books' unless we want to return the land.

That said where natives are at now is because that is where we have wanted them to be, it has been in the Feds best interest to keep the native population compliant through dysfunction, the currant system ensures power is kept in the hands of a few families who have largely done as they are told.

[tete]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

I would like to see some of these original treaties that the Canadian people are being held to. What in the world did we actually agree to? Take their land and care for them for the next 300 years? Pay them X amount of money? What exactly are the terms, and what needs to be done to fulfill them and get these horrible contracts 'off the books' as it were?

Here's Treaty 1 - signed in 1871 with the aboriginal peoples in the Manitoba/Saskatchewan and Northwest Ontario area (roughly).

http://www.canadiana.org/view/30387/0315

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by tete

Here's Treaty 1 - signed in 1871 with the aboriginal peoples in the Manitoba/Saskatchewan and Northwest Ontario area (roughly).

http://www.canadiana.org/view/30387/0315

Ok. I've read through Treaty One, and I fully admit that I am not versed in any sort of lawyerism. But it looks to me like that was a pretty straight up one time thing. "You give us this land. We provide that land, $3 bucks each, a school at your request, and some other baubles depending on family size and the like. We agree to a peace between our peoples, and we all go our separate ways".

I don't see (though admit that I may simply not recognize) anything that says "We'll pretty much pay for everything for your tribe until the end of time."

It seems that would be an easy contract to fill. The govt gets the chunk of land named therein, the natives get the land named therein. The govt pays the natives the alloted amount per native. Builds them a school when they want it (Nothing was said about the content of that school, but that's a whole 'nother thread...) and everything's on the up and up.

Can't be that easy, though. After all, the gov't isn't handing out $3 (inflation adjusted) and a blanket to newborn Natives.

[tete]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

Ok. I've read through Treaty One, and I fully admit that I am not versed in any sort of lawyerism. But it looks to me like that was a pretty straight up one time thing. "You give us this land. We provide that land, $3 bucks each, a school at your request, and some other baubles depending on family size and the like. We agree to a peace between our peoples, and we all go our separate ways".

I don't see (though admit that I may simply not recognize) anything that says "We'll pretty much pay for everything for your tribe until the end of time."

It seems that would be an easy contract to fill. The govt gets the chunk of land named therein, the natives get the land named therein. The govt pays the natives the alloted amount per native. Builds them a school when they want it (Nothing was said about the content of that school, but that's a whole 'nother thread...) and everything's on the up and up.

Can't be that easy, though. After all, the gov't isn't handing out $3 (inflation adjusted) and a blanket to newborn Natives.

Actually, they hand out a shiny $5 bill at Treaty Days every year to Treaty Indians who fall under Treaty 1.

[schteve_d]

I think this, not this one reserve pressing for more money, but the whole native issue is the biggest issue facing Canada moving forward. Bigger than Quebec, bigger than pipelines, bigger than anything else. This is an issue that is crippling this country and needs to be dealt with. Unfortunately I don't think it ever will be to the satisfaction of anyone.

At least not in my lifetime.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by tete

Actually, they hand out a shiny $5 bill at Treaty Days every year to Treaty Indians who fall under Treaty 1.

Yeah, the ongoing joke when you want to borrow is, "I'll pay you on Treaty Day".

[CaramonLS]

There are absolutely problems on both sides of the issue for aboriginals. The government has done them a lot of wrong in the past and the reserve system is struggling to get a lot of the essential services it needs to properly set itself up for success. The education system on many of the reserves is completely outdated and really doesn't prepare aboriginals for life in Canadian Society.

On the flip side of that, Aboriginals are very very sensitive to changes to policies and programs within the government because of their history. They probably have the longest memories of anyone I know (people can literally breakdown in tears when they discuss things like residential schools). It might be something that has been abolished for close to 40 to 50!! years in some instances but it is still fresh in their minds as if it was yesterday.

There has been a lot of reaching out from private industry in particular, especially recently to help promote their own internal diversity and inclusion strategies. There are more jobs and opportunities for aboriginals than at any time in recent history. Part of the problem is though that a lot of people remain skeptical with overly perceived elements of racism which ultimately becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as a barrier to employment. One problem with the reserve system is that there are not a lot of opportunities on reserve - and it has been very difficult for people to leave their family.

I think that both sides still have some growing up to do - there is a great deal of racism and lack of trust on both sides - from my own experience, aboriginals are much less likely to trust me because of my ethnicity than someone who is aboriginal.

However, it may be harsh, but in some ways Aboriginals need to build a bridge and get over their own fears. The world isn't out to get them anymore.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Superfraggle

Wow. This isn't even close to what happened. I can't even begin to explain where you're wrong because everything in this post is so fundamentally out to lunch. Right from the concept of land ownership before Europeans arrived to...well...everything else. You really need to go out and do some learning about these things in a way that you won't get on a message board.

Well I guess I was lied too as a child then because someone slaughtered my great great great Uncle,Aunt and 3 young cousins from Switzerland in Wyoming while they slept in a friken tent while making their way across the American plains.

I don't claim to know the whole story but I am sure the Indians were no saints, there probably wasn't a drop of diplomatic blood in their body's.

And while your such an expert answer my question?, why are we funding these people with ######ed numbers with our tax dollars,allowing them exemptions to Canada's laws that we the tax payers have to abide by?

They are the only people in Canada that can have private casino's, hell even the non smoking laws don't apply...we all should be so lucky to be born a native 150 years after our for-fathers lost a land war.

[opendoor]

Reading people talk about this issue that they really have no idea about makes my brain hurt. No offense to anyone in particular, but it's a lot more complicated than what many are portraying. Also realize that no matter how well intentioned, bringing up phrases like "assimilate them" is treading on some pretty offensive territory.

The Reserve System is broken and it has been for its entire existence. But the notion that First Nations peoples are going to be helped by abrogating legal responsibilities, stripping them of their right's and throwing them into a "sink or swim" scenario is absolute fantasy.

The sad thing is it can take many generations to overcome and heal what it only took a few years to **** up. Unfortunately the government has spent the last century and a half first systematically trying to destroy native peoples and then ignoring them. Only recently has anyone begun to take the issue seriously and it'll take many decades to fix.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by T@T

Well I guess I was lied too as a child then because someone slaughtered my great great great Uncle,Aunt and 3 young cousins from Switzerland in Wyoming while they slept in a friken tent while making their way across the American plains.

I don't claim to know the whole story but I am sure the Indians were no saints, there probably wasn't a drop of diplomatic blood in their body's.

No, you're just taking a single story and turning it into an embarrassing display of racism.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by T@T

They are the only people in Canada that can have private casino's, hell even the non smoking laws don't apply...we all should be so lucky to be born a native 150 years after our for-fathers lost a land war.

The non-smoking laws don't apply to them because those laws are provincial laws and they are sitting on federal land. Another example of this is that the federal government is exempt from paying taxes to provincial or municipal bodies. So the federal government doesn't have to pay property taxes to Ottawa despite having a ton of property in the city.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by opendoor

The Reserve System is broken and it has been for its entire existence. But the notion that First Nations peoples are going to be helped by abrogating legal responsibilities, stripping them of their right's and throwing them into a "sink or swim" scenario is absolute fantasy.

If you want to 'fix' the problem, at some point Natives will have to learn how to adapt to normal society.

Every single 'group' in Canada has to deal with normal society one way or the other.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by T@T

Well I guess I was lied too as a child then because someone slaughtered my great great great Uncle,Aunt and 3 young cousins from Switzerland in Wyoming while they slept in a friken tent while making their way across the American plains.

It is time to give up the grudge when you are four generations removed from the story which has likely changed and been altered in the past 200 years.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Azure

If you want to 'fix' the problem, at some point Natives will have to learn how to adapt to normal society.

Every single 'group' in Canada has to deal with normal society one way or the other.

exactly. the difference is always pointed out that the natives were here first, but guess what? that was many centuries ago and it just doesn't make any difference today. they are a group of minorities among many in this country, and the rest have all adapted to Canadian society and culture. it's time for them to finally do the same

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

exactly. the difference is always pointed out that the natives were here first, but guess what? that was many centuries ago and it just doesn't make any difference today. they are a group of minorities among many in this country, and the rest have all adapted to Canadian society and culture. it's time for them to finally do the same

There is a vast difference between moving to a foreign country of your own volition and having a foreign country thrust upon you. That's precisely why both the First Nations and the Quebecois are granted special rights; their existence as a self contained society on Canadian land predates our country.

Immigrants were also allowed to own and inherit property which led to building of wealth through successive generations. In fact, in the 1800s as long as you were white you'd basically be given hundreds of acres to do what you wanted with. In some areas 10-15 white families would be given as much land as a Reserve that was supposed to support thousands of people. That kind of thing has had a profound impact over time. Just as wealth passes down through generations, so does poverty. Especially when for many decades there was really no viable way to make a living.

Whether people like it or not, there is a pretty clear legal obligation based on treaties and the constitution. The question is not whether Canada should ignore its legal and ethical responsibilities, but how they can create a solution that is as equitable as possible for everyone involved.

The notion of it being ancient history and thus should basically be ignored is absurd. Successive generations pay for the mistakes of their ancestors all the time. If the government of Canada racked up a ton of debt do you think in 100 years they could just not pay it because "it was decades ago"?

The end goal should be the removal of the Reserve system and a future where First Nations peoples can be self sufficient and prosperous on their own lands. But it's going to take many, many years to get there and a lot of work. Telling a race of people to "man up" isn't the solution.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by opendoor

The end goal should be the removal of the Reserve system and a future where First Nations peoples can be self sufficient and prosperous on their own lands. But it's going to take many, many years to get there and a lot of work. Telling a race of people to "man up" isn't the solution.

One of the current problems with this though, is that non-Natives look at the Natives, and see all the govt "help" they get. Free houses. Free education. Pretty much free everything it seems. Most folks don't mind helping others, but when someone is given something and they do nothing with it or just squander it, that's when rage begins to build.

And all the freebies and tax breaks and whatnot they are getting aren't helping. They aren't integrating. They don't seem to want to. So that image doesn't help, either. Most folks, it would seem, are getting pretty upset about supporting the Natives, when it's not doing any bit of good.

A solution has to be reached, and I'm not sure that we have "decades" to do it in.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

One of the current problems with this though, is that non-Natives look at the Natives, and see all the govt "help" they get. Free houses. Free education. Pretty much free everything it seems. Most folks don't mind helping others, but when someone is given something and they do nothing with it or just squander it, that's when rage begins to build.

And all the freebies and tax breaks and whatnot they are getting aren't helping. They aren't integrating. They don't seem to want to. So that image doesn't help, either. Most folks, it would seem, are getting pretty upset about supporting the Natives, when it's not doing any bit of good.

A solution has to be reached, and I'm not sure that we have "decades" to do it in.

It's really just the end result of a long series of mistakes by various parties. Marginalizing a group of people, expropriating their land, isolating them on meagerly sized reserves, and then throwing a bunch of money at them 100 years later isn't going to result in any kind of progress. This isn't a normal situation of poverty. It's an identifiable group of people who due to the current arrangement have very little realistic mobility (not in terms of economic, employment, or where they can live) so the problem just festers and continues. You have several generations of people who have grown up with nothing but abuse, poverty, and living under a corrupt system.

It took 100+ years of mistakes to get to this point; the solution isn't going to come overnight. It'll take generations. But steps can be taken, and neither continuing to throw money at corrupt band leaders nor cutting them off and trying to force them to assimilate are the path to success.

As it is, the Canadian government has a clear legal responsibility to support them. An equitable solution could've easily been reached 100-150 years ago but the government wasn't interested. We're now paying for that mistake.

[schteve_d]

Originally Posted by opendoor

We're now paying for that mistake.

Are we ever.