Nova Scotia student suspended over "Life is wasted without Jesus" t-shirt

[valo403]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

To me its not about religion at all, I think that people are manufacturing a religious slant to it.

It takes a pretty short assembly line to manufacture religion into something where Jesus is at the crux of the issue

[photon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I was anti Occupy because it was literally a protest about nothing, It was more about people sitting in a park, partying, smoking dope, pooping in a public place, denying a group who rented the park from actually using all of a park.

I don't think the validity of the cause should enter into any decision about freedoms, otherwise you simply limit freedoms for causes you don't like and allow them for causes you do like.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

My disagreement point is that I don't see anything on that shirt that is offensive, I think its a real stretch to make it offensive. I think its a really weak interpretation of offensive by the suspending body

"Life is wasted without Jesus", what is being wasted? Life. All life. All life without Jesus, meaning all life that isn't a Christian life (because life with Jesus is by definition Christian) is wasted, including any other religion.

It's targeted towards all others that are not like the wearer of the shirt, that makes it over the line.

If you want to disagree with the decision and think it's weak, that's fine, these things can be subjective. But it was their call to make.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

and I think that the punishment is extremely punative in the face of lighter suspensions for fighting for example or a lack of action in terms of bullying that we've read about in the paper over the last two years.

You're conflating two different issues that aren't related. This group was judging one shirt against one rule, and you're equating media reporting of bullying over the past two years to make a point that they're focusing on freedom of expression over child safety?

Sorry, that's not reasonable.

The suspension was for disobeying instructions from the school authorities.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I just don't see it as a denigration of anything, maybe he's born again and this is his testimony.

I'm sure it is, so? Again just because he believes it doesn't mean he's allowed to put it on his shirt. If it's his testimony, put "My" in front so it refers to him instead of having it off where it refers to everyone else.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Where does it state anything about other religions in that slogan? You can't banish or suspended based on filling in the blanks with your own personal interprestation.

"Life is wasted without Jesus", what is being wasted? Life. All life. All life without Jesus, meaning all life that isn't a Christian life (because life with Jesus is by definition Christian) is wasted, including any other religion.

If you want to argue that it means something other than all life, then you're the one filling in the blanks, because if there's no qualifier on the object then grammar means it refers to all instances of the object.

"I hate heat." No reasonable person would say that refers to just a particular heat, it refers to heat in general.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Photes that's a real stretch. The suspension is based on an interpretation, not on hard facts. If the shirt was actually naming other religions, or had a component of hate speech, suspend away, but I don't think that you can punish someone based on your interpretation.

Well it's not a speeding ticket so the only facts that are used are the rule in question, the words on the shirt, the language, and what a reasonable person would interpret it as.

The rule is "If a message can be reasonably interpreted by a person as negative towards another person's beliefs", and I think it can be reasonably interpreted as such, since many people in this tread reasonably interpret it so.

And I don't think it's a stretch at all, my example simply replaces his personal belief (Jesus) with his personal race (white).

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

You could argue that weeks of ignoring requests is a legitimate protest in this case.

I don't think so, because a) I don't think high schools are the right places for such protests (it's disruptive to others) and b) because he hasn't pursued other options and c) he wasn't making some cogent point about why limiting freedom of expression in that environment was harmful to society, he was just saying "your rules don't apply to me because I'm a special snowflake".

If he'd pursued other options first and had a compelling reason why the rule shouldn't be there or why his shirt in particular didn't run afoul of the rules, then I'd be more considerate of his "protest" (even though I'd still think it wasn't appropriate).

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Just playing devils advocate on this, but I would be more interesting in seeing what the warnings were like, if they were written warnings etc.

Sure, I'd also be interested in knowing the students actions in school around the issue. Was he respectfully wearing the shirt while trying to avoid confrontation and making it clear he's doing it as a freedom of expression issue? Or was he evangelizing?

[TSXCman]

reminds me of when I wore that racially charged tshirt to school back in the day to my mostly white highschool. The suspension was tough.

"White Men Can't Jump"

[Hilch]

I'm sure if a Jewish person wore a "Life is wasted with Jesus" these Christians crying about hate on their religion would be on in arms and wouldn't want that shirt in a school.

[photon]

Originally Posted by M*A*S*H 4077

If some kid is wearing their Stamps shirt (I know this is in Nova Scotia so this isn't likely) and it says 'Riders Suck' on it then I would expect them to take similar steps with that kid as it could be seen as offensive to Rider fans.

Well sport probably doesn't fall under the religion/culture/race/etc that was laid out in the rules, but they probably still would.

It would probably not be because "Riders Suck" is so overly offensive, it's because people who wear "Riders Suck" shirts often do so as an overall plan for being offensive and disruptive... It's the few real jerks that can't stop at a little fun ribbing and have to take things way too far and make life miserable for everyone that ruin it for everyone else.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

To me its not about religion at all, I think that people are manufacturing a religious slant to it.

"without Jesus" means not having accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour thereby bridging the gap between a Holy God and a sinful man and saving you from eternal separation from God and eternal damnation. I'm not sure how that could be NOT religious.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

He was wearing a shirt with a slogan, nothing more.

Actually, it sounds like he was acting like a first class d0u¢henozzle.

http://www.globalmaritimes.com/pages...?id=6442633158

Student Lucas Reeves wrote there is more to the story than what Swinimer is sharing.

"Please take your head out of the sand and realize that people are being affected by this and it needs to stop," he writes.

He claims Swinimer wore the shirt for about two weeks straight and repeatedly "verbally attacked other students about their religions."

Being a jerk after you've been asked to stop being a jerk isn't the road to success if you're in high school. It's a hard lesson but it seems this kid has to learn it.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Hilch

I'm sure if a Jewish person wore a "Life is wasted with Jesus" these Christians crying about hate on their religion would be on in arms and wouldn't want that shirt in a school.

There is a difference between being proud of your religion and attacking someone else's. The line between the two is fine.

The difference between the two totally depends on the nuances and details of the situation too. If it was an organized all Christians wear pro-Jesus event where you had 80% of the student body wearing the shirts, then I could see even that being a problem. Or if there had been a history of religious conflict in the school, and the school was banning these shirts in a similar way that some bars ban hockey jerseys.

However, one student quietly expressing his beliefs by wearing a pro-Jesus t-shirt really doesn't bother me in the slightest.

[M*A*S*H 4077]

Originally Posted by photon

Well sport probably doesn't fall under the religion/culture/race/etc that was laid out in the rules, but they probably still would.

It would probably not be because "Riders Suck" is so overly offensive, it's because people who wear "Riders Suck" shirts often do so as an overall plan for being offensive and disruptive... It's the few real jerks that can't stop at a little fun ribbing and have to take things way too far and make life miserable for everyone that ruin it for everyone else.



"without Jesus" means not having accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour thereby bridging the gap between a Holy God and a sinful man and saving you from eternal separation from God and eternal damnation. I'm not sure how that could be NOT religious.

Lifestyle is included in the rules and I would say that sport would be included in lifestyle. Like I said, as long as they are consistent then I can accept it.

And I agree, not sure how this doesn't have a religious slant to it

[Senator Clay Davis]

But his shirt is attacking other's beliefs by implying that those without Jesus are wasting their lives. His shirt is saying other's beliefs are inferior to the belief in Jesus.

[M*A*S*H 4077]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

But his shirt is attacking other's beliefs by implying that those without Jesus are wasting their lives. His shirt is saying other's beliefs are inferior to the belief in Jesus.

I think Blankall did a good job:

Originally Posted by blankall

Yeah I really don't see the difference between this shirt and wearing other religious symbols like crosses, yamukahs, islamic head coverings, sikh turbins, etc....

His shirt basically proclaims that his religion is the best in his opinion. However, when anyone wears a religious symbol of any kind they are doing that.

As for how people interpret it...who cares? You don't have the right not to be offended by others' beliefs. I could easily interpret a Muslim or Jewish symbol to mean that student thinks their religion is better than others. People are allowed to think and express that as long as they aren't infringing on the rights of others to their own beliefs.

If this student was going around aggressively attacking or pushing his beliefs on others and this was the last straw, yeah ban the t-shirt. If he's just sitting there with a t-shirt that essentially says "I think Jesus is the best option" and others are reading into it, then we are being way to sensitive.

EDIT: I think it's been established that under the rules laid out by the school that the shirt is out of bounds as it is something that could be interpreted as being offensive, though it doesn't say anything directly. Whether or not that rule is fair is a different matter

[photon]

Originally Posted by Reaper

Being a jerk after you've been asked to stop being a jerk isn't the road to success if you're in high school. It's a hard lesson but it seems this kid has to learn it.

I'm skeptical he'll learn it, the suspension will just confirm his bias and make him more fervent that he has the only Truth and that the devil will stop at nothing to muzzle him.

This is the exact kind of thing I was fed as a teenager, we were all encouraged (and actively helped) to start prayer groups, prominently carry and read our Bible everywhere, wear provocative shirts or jewelry or stickers on books, and if we got any pushback, "God's ways are higher than man's ways". Resistance meant we were on the right path since God's chosen are always persecuted, the bigger the crap storm the closer to the right thing it was.

Don't know what they're feeding this kid of course, but it wouldn't be shocking if it was similar.

EDIT: From the article you posted:

This is the seventh time school officials have suspended Swinimer for the same reason.

Swinimer says the school is discriminating against him because of his religious beliefs.

Yup...

[Senator Clay Davis]

Photon put it best: If the shirt has the words My, I or anything that personalizes the statement to an individual, then no one can take offense to that. "Life is wasted without Jesus" is open to interpretation. I also would like to point out in my observations, the quiet Christians who keep to themselves about their beliefs aren't the ones wearing these types of shirts, its the people who go out of their way to point out why Jesus needs to be in their lives.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

You couldn't tell?

You said you don't care about others having their ability to voice their beliefs and values crushed on behalf of defending "Western moral tradition." For the life of me, I can't see "crushing" in your definition of tolerance there.

It is perfectly clear that you don't actually preach tolerance of any sort. You might wish to disguise your thinly veiled bigotry (remember, tolerance is freedom from bigotry, as per your definition) and close-minded hand-wringing over the supposed destruction of western morality and culture -- and I've heard others claim the same thing, but I've never yet heard what morals and what culture is really being destroyed, or seen any actual examples that aren't disproven by real numbers, so I'm still waiting -- but it's not difficult to see through your facade.

In the end, I suppose I'm happier with being a liberal ninny than whatever the hell you are.

Wow HP, comparing people who care about their traditional culture to Hitler? That is hateful bigotry if I've ever seen it. You should work for the ADL.

You should read my post more carefully, but let me clarify anyways.

It is well known that minoritiy groups have struggled to be recognized in past decades, but that was then and this is now. I said the pendulum has swung too far...I guess you missed that part...and I "didn't care" to get into a law history discussion with valo403. He doesn't actually post any opinions or ideas of his own but would rather attack others he disagrees with.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by blankall

There is a difference between being proud of your religion and attacking someone else's. The line between the two is fine.

The difference between the two totally depends on the nuances and details of the situation too. If it was an organized all Christians wear pro-Jesus event where you had 80% of the student body wearing the shirts, then I could see even that being a problem. Or if there had been a history of religious conflict in the school, and the school was banning these shirts in a similar way that some bars ban hockey jerseys.

However, one student quietly expressing his beliefs by wearing a pro-Jesus t-shirt really doesn't bother me in the slightest.

It's very much a subjective opinion about whether a "Life is wasted without Jesus" shirt is pro-Jesus or anti other religions (or both). I think a reasonable person can read that slogan and interpret its meaning as "All people who practice non-Christian religions are wasting their lives". I personally am not offended by the shirt, but I'm not so inconsiderate to deny that anyone might reasonably find it hostile towards their religious beliefs.

[CaptainCrunch]

nm

[valo403]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Wow HP, comparing people who care about their traditional culture to Hitler? That is hateful bigotry if I've ever seen it. You should work for the ADL.

You should read my post more carefully, but let me clarify anyways.

It is well known that minoritiy groups have struggled to be recognized in past decades, but that was then and this is now. I said the pendulum has swung too far...I guess you missed that part...and I "didn't care" to get into a law history discussion with valo403. He doesn't actually post any opinions or ideas of his own but would rather attack others he disagrees with.

You didn't care to get into the history of it because a) you don't know or understand it, b) you're not capable of crafting an intelligent argument about it and c) it doesn't support your uninformed position.

And how exactly does countering an opinion I disagree with not demonstrate my opinion and ideas on a matter?

[Frank MetaMusil]

Not sure if this was posted yet.....


Media Advisory: National Organization for Atheists Opposes Suspension of N.S. Pro-Jesus Student

[kn]

I'll admit that I have no idea what is and is not allowed anymore.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

In public schools and institutions, you have freedom of religion and expression so long as it does not offend anybody? Is that the crux of it?

It really does seem that the "right not to be offended" has run amuck...

[CaramonLS]

Kid sounds like a real Delta Bravo. Hope someone gives him beatings for Jesus.

[Lobotroth]

Originally Posted by kn

I'll admit that I have no idea what is and is not allowed anymore.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

In public schools and institutions, you have freedom of religion and expression so long as it does not offend anybody? Is that the crux of it?

It really does seem that the "right not to be offended" has run amuck...

Spoiler!