Atheism is a Religion (Split from Blessing Human Rights thread)

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

No belief isn't the same as knowing. Splitting hairs in some peoples eyes but I make the distinction. Belief often entails second hand information, like in a holy book or a religious leader. If you trust the book or say a person, you can say you are 100% certain you believe there is a god but Gnostic means you know and to know you have to experience it for yourself.

Actually, knowledge is a belief. Specifically, it is a justifiable, true belief.

Let's say, for example, you're a theist gnostic (I realize you don't describe yourself as such, but this is for the sake of argument). You might tell me that you know a god exists, based on personal experiences. You might even tell me what those experiences are (your justification). However, I do not know that God exists, because I don't have any experiences that prove God to be true. I can't describe whether your belief is true or not, only that it is certain. So the best I can do is say that you're certain that God exists.

Now, let's say you meet a gnostic atheist, and he says he knows that God does not exist. To your perspective, this is impossible. One of you is wrong, you can't both 'know' your differing perspectives. It becomes impossible, then to have gnostic theists and gnostic atheists. But it is possible for you both to be certain of your beliefs. So we talk about these questions in terms of certainty rather than knowledge. Otherwise, the debate would be impossible.

[Cole436]

At the end of the day, he's right.
If we look at religion objectively as a social constructs in which we build in society, the institution of no religion can create the same structure.
We create every idea and base of knowledge in this world, so the idea that atheism can be built to serve the same function as a religious institution is not wrong, and the idea that it in itself can be viewed as a religion is not wrong either.
FYI, I'm not at all religious.

[Thor]

It really concerns me when anyone is "certain" either way, I find it discomforting someone can be certain about anything. Maybe its my scientific background, but I know according to the poll so far certainty is discomforting to others as well.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Actually, knowledge is a belief. Specifically, it is a justifiable, true belief.

Let's say, for example, you're a theist gnostic (I realize you don't describe yourself as such, but this is for the sake of argument). You might tell me that you know a god exists, based on personal experiences. You might even tell me what those experiences are (your justification). However, I do not know that God exists, because I don't have any experiences that prove God to be true. I can't describe whether your belief is true or not, only that it is certain. So the best I can do is say that you're certain that God exists.

Now, let's say you meet a gnostic atheist, and he says he knows that God does not exist. To your perspective, this is impossible. One of you is wrong, you can't both 'know' your differing perspectives. It becomes impossible, then to have gnostic theists and gnostic atheists. But it is possible for you both to be certain of your beliefs. So we talk about these questions in terms of certainty rather than knowledge. Otherwise, the debate would be impossible.

Yes, the best you can do is say that I am certain which is second hand but if I could say, show you what I experience than you would also know and thus be a gnostic theist. I dislike these labels though as they are something made up by our minds and is not the way I understand this god, energy, etc. or as the Jews say about the name of YHWH, the unspeakable, and yes the debate is impossible which may make some uneasy but I don't want to do that. What I practise is very peaceful.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Thor

It really concerns me when anyone is "certain" either way, I find it discomforting someone can be certain about anything. Maybe its my scientific background, but I know according to the poll so far certainty is discomforting to others as well.

I may not understand how you mean by certain but where I'm sitting and typing this I know that I'm resting the heels of my hands on my desk. It's a good desk, made it myself in high school many years ago. This is all I can go by, my feelings and other senses.

[FlamesAddiction]

I said other.

I'm definitely agnostic, and I tend to lean towards there being some supernatural elements in nature regarding the origin of the universe and life, but I draw the line at calling it a "god" or "gods".

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I may not understand how you mean by certain but where I'm sitting and typing this I know that I'm resting the heels of my hands on my desk.

But what if I asked you if you were were certain that it was all you were doing? It's easy for us to positively affirm things through observation, but you have to keep in mind that we only ever touch the surface of reality (reality being limited to our senses and is sometimes extended to what we can infer).

For example, if you asked someone that question 1,000 years ago, he would have probably said he was certain that is hands were only resting on his desk and nothing else, but now we know there is a lot more going on that we cannot sense on both macro and micro levels. Your desk is litterally being hurled through space at xx,xxxx km/h. There are also tiny particles moving through your hands and your desk. While it's true that your hands are only resting on your desk from your perspective, however in reality, they are not resting at all. Everything in the universe in dynamic and changing constantly.

It's a good desk, made it myself in high school many years ago. This is all I can go by, my feelings and other senses.

But don't you see how limiting that is? Humans evolved 5 basic instincts to help us survive, and all 5 of them are specific to what our little spec of dust in the universe required. I think it's arrogant for a species on one little planet to assume that their senses are even close to knowing even a minute fraction of what is going on in reality.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I may not understand how you mean by certain but where I'm sitting and typing this I know that I'm resting the heels of my hands on my desk. It's a good desk, made it myself in high school many years ago. This is all I can go by, my feelings and other senses.

I'm going to tell you something that will blow your mind!

Your desk doesn't actually exist!

[photon]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

No belief isn't the same as knowing. Splitting hairs in some peoples eyes but I make the distinction.

Oh definitely. Belief may be informed by knowledge or it may not be, but belief can be independent of knowledge.

Belief is the psychological state in which a person holds a premise to be true.

Whereas knowledge involves substantiation of that premise, evidence, something you can demonstrate unambiguously to others.

So for the graph you mentioned a gnostic theist, that means a person is both a theist (they believe, they hold the god premise to be true), AND they claim knowledge (they believe because they know (or think they know anyway)).

That's why the four quadrants of the graph, because you can have any combination of both belief (just holding the god proposition to be true) and knowledge (claiming to either know for sure, or not know for sure).

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Belief often entails second hand information, like in a holy book or a religious leader.

True, though it doesn't have to; often belief is simply the default position on a topic because you were raised in an environment with that belief.

Belief is just holding a premise to be true, regardless of why you hold it to be true.

Originally Posted by Vulcan

If you trust the book or say a person, you can say you are 100% certain you believe there is a god but Gnostic means you know and to know you have to experience it for yourself.

Right, so you believe, and that belief is derived from knowledge (leaving out the question of the validity of that knowledge, I would argue a lot of people that believe and think they have knowledge actually don't have knowledge).

[photon]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I said other.

I'm definitely agnostic, and I tend to lean towards there being some supernatural elements in nature regarding the origin of the universe and life, but I draw the line at calling it a "god" or "gods".

What makes it supernatural then though? Couldn't you just as easily say elements involving as of yet unknown laws of nature?

Wouldn't that still make you an atheist, since the answer to the question "do you believe in god/s?" is no?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Thor

It really concerns me when anyone is "certain" either way, I find it discomforting someone can be certain about anything. Maybe its my scientific background, but I know according to the poll so far certainty is discomforting to others as well.

I am stunned at the results so far. I really expected to be in the minority.

[photon]

Is it possibly skewed because it's an "atheism/religion" thread and believers are skipping the thread?

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by photon

Is it possibly skewed because it's an "atheism/religion" thread and believers are skipping the thread?

Amongst other things. These threads are in general pretty hostile places for those that believe in God(s). I am sure many people just skip over them.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

Is it possibly skewed because it's an "atheism/religion" thread and believers are skipping the thread?

For sure. I was referring to the atheist split though. I assumed there were many more gnostic atheists here than agnostic.

[troutman]

I am a gnostic atheist regarding any literal god described by mankind, but agnostic to the possibility of there being some kind of god(s).

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by troutman

I am a gnostic atheist regarding any literal god described by mankind, but agnostic to the possibility of there being some kind of god(s).

What do you mean by a "literal god described by mankind"?

[Lobotroth]

100% certain there is a God or Gods. How?

[Zee]

Atheism is not a religion... however a large number (not all) of highly vocal atheists are more evangelical and push their beliefs down other people throats far more than other religions do, and believe themselves to be more enlightened than those that believe in any religion.

The behavior may be that of religious zealots, even though they are not members of a religion per-se.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What do you mean by a "literal god described by mankind"?

I believe what he's saying is that the notion of a 'god' as comprehended by ancient cultures is something he vehemently does not believe in.

However, he's open to the idea that there is some 'order' or otherwise controlling/creating force at work that is beyond his comprehension.

I feel the same way. I'm not persuaded by thousand year old texts that tell me god is vengeful and that I shouldn't get tattoos.

I'm smart enough, however, to realize I don't know very much and that the possibility remains open.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Lobotroth

100% certain there is a God or Gods. How?

Mental deficiency.