Harpers F35s not quite cleared for takeoff

[Senator Clay Davis]

Good way to not look guilty....

Trying to buck tradition, Conservative MPs on the House of Commons public accounts committee attempted Tuesday to delay testimony by the Auditor-General on the bungled process to purchase new fighter jets.

However, committee chair David Christopherson expressed his outrage at the tactic, threatening to quit his position if the Conservatives used their majority to avoid hearing from the federal spending watchdog at the launch of the hearings.

“This will not continue with me in the chair,” the NDP MP said. “This is wrong.”

The Conservatives on the committee relented and allowed their motion to be amended to include the testimony of Auditor-General Michael Ferguson on Thursday, and other witnesses next week.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2412291/

[automaton 3]

Apparently the budget doesn't include any needed replacement aircraft, estimated at 14:

http://www.hilltimes.com/news/news/2...ge_requested=1

It seemed fishy that the number of airframes required suddenly dropped from 80 to 65. Seems to me they were hoping to slide the purchase through and deal with the replacement aircraft problem later.

This procurement is a fiasco. It is way past time to run an open and transparent competition and see what the other manufactures can offer.

[burn_this_city]

What other manufacturers? No one else is producing the next generation aircraft that will integrate with NATO.

[NuclearPizzaMan]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

What other manufacturers? No one else is producing the next generation aircraft that will integrate with NATO.

Is the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet going to lose its ability to integrate with other NATO units somehow?

Someone needs to take a large club to lockheed martin over this failure. The F-35 was supposed to be the budget gen 5 fighter.

[burn_this_city]

It's not a Gen 5 aircraft, what's the point in buying planes that won't keep you ahead of the curve compared to potential adversaries?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by NuclearPizzaMan

Is the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet going to lose its ability to integrate with other NATO units somehow?

Someone needs to take a large club to lockheed martin over this failure. The F-35 was supposed to be the budget gen 5 fighter.

In terms of the integrated unit data links and target sharing that the F35 has the F-18 Super hornet is behind.

The Superhornet is already starting to enter its obsolencance cycle, it won't be effective against fifth generation planes. It was meant to be a transitional fighter with the eventual American plan being that all of its airforces Marine, Navy and Airforce would adopt the F35.

[automaton 3]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

It's not a Gen 5 aircraft, what's the point in buying planes that won't keep you ahead of the curve compared to potential adversaries?

That is what the LM marketing department keeps telling everyone, in any event.

If the F-35 is a superior value compared to the available Gen 4.5 aircraft (Typhoon, Rafale, Super Hornet) then surely LM has nothing to worry about by participating in an open competition.

In other news, F-35 workers go on strike:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8FOG4P20120424

[kn]

Originally Posted by SebC

If he's actually a Straussian (as this article and this article hypothesize), then yes, yes it is.

Interesting. I never realized I was unwittingly being co-opted into an international conservative conspiracy. Talk about "hidden agenda"! Even Danielle Smith spoke to this secret organization 'Civitas'!

Here's a rejoinder:
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.ht...af28a87668&p=1

But then I'm not a political philosopher and accordingly, obviously not in a position to understand what is discretely happening to me.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

It's not a Gen 5 aircraft, what's the point in buying planes that won't keep you ahead of the curve compared to potential adversaries?

what potential adversaries North Korea Syria the taliban?

[worth]

Umm... I think China would be a big one.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

what potential adversaries North Korea Syria the taliban?

Russia, China, North Korea, Japan, South Korea and India are all working to develop 5th generation planes.

Further to the whole f-35 vs f18 debate, and I'm an airforce Layman, Bindair comes across as move well versed in this stuff then I am.

fifth generation is more then one single element. Its a combination of avionic design, stealth, multiple targeting mode, situational awareness and ability to mass communicate.

If effect for one thing is that its a plane that no longer needs an AWACs in its digitial battlefield because all of the planes are interlinked and offer the wide high definition radar range that the AWACs used to offer. The argument being that if your AWACS or controlling radar gets blanked, in a pre fifth generation fighter your pretty much pooched and have no awareness of anything except what's immediately around your fighter. In a fifh generation fighter team, because your interoperability makes up your situational picture, your a self contained awacs and fighter group in one.

So for example in a 4.5 and below aircraft, you wait to hear from your controller who spots an aircraft 100 miles away and he vectors you over to it.

With a 5th generation fighter a fighter crew using the new AESA radar spots a cluster of enemy fighters, instantly every f35 in the air is aware and that situation is displayed since all of the fighters are networked together, then the commander on the scene can make the best decision on how to engage that.

In concert with that, the Stealth package does give advantages in concert with the above in that you can use that + the situational advantage + the network advantage + the 0 requirement for a controlling aircraft such as a AWACS.

In terms of the engines on most fifth generation fighters they give a much smaller heat signature then the current 4.5 and below, so its more diffficult to lock on to them from any aspect, whereas the Superhornet still gives off a pretty significant heat signature from the rear + no real stealth from the front makes the plane more vulnerable.

I'm not saying that the F-18 Super is a bad or terrible fighter, it does have the AESA radar system which gives it decent situational awareness as an individual plane, but it lacks the interoperability, the better defensive capabilities etc of a fifth generation plane.

One USAF senior pilot stated that a plane like the Super hornet gives you great situational awareness of the guy in the fifth generation fighter that kills you.

I don't think that I would have any trouble with the government opening up a open competition as long as the key deciding factor is based around capability of the plane and its efficiency in a small airforce as oppossed to a low budget alternative.

[automaton 3]

Agreed Captain. The F-35 is far from completed though. Costs continue to spiral. And it is supposed to do many very impressive things "on paper" but until the software is sorted out it is a bit of an unknown:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8EU8C420120330

Problems abound:
http://defense.aol.com/2011/12/13/la...k-look-review/

Meanwhile the Pentagon has been shifting performance requirements downwards:
http://insidedefense.com/20120301239...nu-id-926.html

As for the Chinese, they appear to be well informed:
http://www.terminalx.org/2012/03/sec...na-hacked.html

[CaptainCrunch]

Thats my one big problem with the whole thing. However I temper it with the fact that this is a whole new type of plane, designed basically by computers using completely different materials and far far more sophisticated software.

They were also too ambitious in making or designing three different vairants at one time.

To me LM is going to run into a major problem with the spiraling costs, they're either going to have to accept far fewer orders, or they're going to have to create an incentive for all of the buyers to be patient (monetary)

However I firmly believe that the Canadian Government and the Military can't repeat the mistakes in the past where we become completely cost focused. Especially when you consider that with the F35 the plan was to buy a superior aircraft for a shrinking airforce.

When we bought the F18's iirc the idea was to have an airforce of up to 100 aircraft. Now the idea is to have an aircraft of about 64 aircraft.

We also don't need to buy equipment at the start of their obsolences cycle, we need to buy something that we're sure is going to remain cutting edge enough so we don't get left behind due to the technological juimp forwards that are going to happen in the next 30 years.


The Chinese allegations is disturbing, they've certainly taken hacking and cyber intelligence gathering to the next level.

I don't think that there's any argument about where the Japanese got their ideas from for their fifth generation fighter




The J20 vs

The F22

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Russia, China, North Korea, Japan, South Korea and India are all working to develop 5th generation planes.

Further to the whole f-35 vs f18 debate, and I'm an airforce Layman, Bindair comes across as move well versed in this stuff then I am.

fifth generation is more then one single element. Its a combination of avionic design, stealth, multiple targeting mode, situational awareness and ability to mass communicate.

If effect for one thing is that its a plane that no longer needs an AWACs in its digitial battlefield because all of the planes are interlinked and offer the wide high definition radar range that the AWACs used to offer. The argument being that if your AWACS or controlling radar gets blanked, in a pre fifth generation fighter your pretty much pooched and have no awareness of anything except what's immediately around your fighter. In a fifh generation fighter team, because your interoperability makes up your situational picture, your a self contained awacs and fighter group in one.

So for example in a 4.5 and below aircraft, you wait to hear from your controller who spots an aircraft 100 miles away and he vectors you over to it.

With a 5th generation fighter a fighter crew using the new AESA radar spots a cluster of enemy fighters, instantly every f35 in the air is aware and that situation is displayed since all of the fighters are networked together, then the commander on the scene can make the best decision on how to engage that.

In concert with that, the Stealth package does give advantages in concert with the above in that you can use that + the situational advantage + the network advantage + the 0 requirement for a controlling aircraft such as a AWACS.

In terms of the engines on most fifth generation fighters they give a much smaller heat signature then the current 4.5 and below, so its more diffficult to lock on to them from any aspect, whereas the Superhornet still gives off a pretty significant heat signature from the rear + no real stealth from the front makes the plane more vulnerable.

I'm not saying that the F-18 Super is a bad or terrible fighter, it does have the AESA radar system which gives it decent situational awareness as an individual plane, but it lacks the interoperability, the better defensive capabilities etc of a fifth generation plane.

One USAF senior pilot stated that a plane like the Super hornet gives you great situational awareness of the guy in the fifth generation fighter that kills you.

I don't think that I would have any trouble with the government opening up a open competition as long as the key deciding factor is based around capability of the plane and its efficiency in a small airforce as oppossed to a low budget alternative.

None of whom we are going to go to war with, or will ever be in any position, even with the purchase of a handlefull of F 35's to go to war with.

We are a country that has choosen not to be a world military power, rightly or wrongly, these planes in no way change that, we will only ever go to war as part of a US led coalition in an attempt to curry political favour, we can do that with a couple of old phantoms just as effectively.

[kn]

I wonder if the abortion kerfuffle being raised is an attempt to deflect attention from the F35s.

I also wonder if the F35s story is actually gaining traction among Canadians (i.e., will anyone not reading this thread remember this issue in 2015?).