April 23 2012: Alberta Provincial Election

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

Do you guys really distrust the voters so much that the idea of a voter initiated referendum scares you. One of the first things to come forward will likely be a petition regarding changing our first past the post system that so many dislike.

Yes and the research supports it. California's direct democracy initiatives have pretty much been uniformally agreed upon to be a colossal failure which have furthered the state's decline.

See that's the problem with you folks. You're idealogues who have fantastical ideas about how the world is and should be. But you don't actually review the evidence meaning there's no real world anchor mooring any of your beliefs.

[Yeah_Baby]

I know I'm a few pages behind, but all the discussion on how Ted Morton is basically as far right as the Wildrose is totally irrelevant at this point. He's running in the new riding of Chestermere-Rocky View against Bruce McAllister of Global fame. Morton won't be winning his seat again.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

I'd much prefer a system where when the oil price spikes we send cheques to albertans and when it falls we go into debt and scramble to meet services while putting on the charade that we wont raise taxes. Much more fiscally responsible and conservative the latter.

And I'd prefer a system where we continually spend far more than any province in Canada, all while having very little to show for it, and land us in a deficit position so we can mortgage our childrens future along with the present.

Much more socially progressive and egalitarian, that way.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

Do you guys really distrust the voters so much that the idea of a voter initiated referendum scares you. One of the first things to come forward will likely be a petition regarding changing our first past the post system that so many dislike.

Yes...for all the reasons outlined above...our MLA should be the conduit by which the concerns of the population are brought into the Government system.

I was trying to find the Benjamin Franklin quote about Government that would reinforce the dangers of populist rule...this is the closest I could find

"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."

I have to learn more about Ben...an amazing guy

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

And I'd prefer a system where we continually spend far more than any province in Canada, all while having very little to show for it, and land us in a deficit position so we can mortgage our childrens future along with the present.

Much more socially progressive and egalitarian, that way.

WTF are you talking about? Nothing to show for it? Really?

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

And I'd prefer a system where we continually spend far more than any province in Canada, all while having very little to show for it, and land us in a deficit position so we can mortgage our childrens future along with the present.

Much more socially progressive and egalitarian, that way.

The scary thing is that I really do think you believe this crap.

Exhibit B against direct democracy people.

[old-fart]

I'll just leave this here...

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by old-fart

I'll just leave this here...

Yeah...that is fraud. He is paid X for every km he drives to cover the cost of his gas...to charge the gas to his corporate credit card is theft.

Should we be angry? Sure...

Should Government corruption and graft be addressed? Sure...

Is voting in the inexperienced WRA the way to do it? Or will the cure be worse than the disease?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

And I'd prefer a system where we continually spend far more than any province in Canada, all while having very little to show for it, and land us in a deficit position so we can mortgage our childrens future along with the present.

Much more socially progressive and egalitarian, that way.

Well the good news for you is that the Wildrose can help you achieve those dreams!

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by old-fart

I'll just leave this here...

Ahh, what's a little theft.

It could be worse, we could vote in someone who is inexperienced and hasn't learned how to steal taxpayer money yet.

/sarcasm

[Slava]

Nm

[Senator Clay Davis]

Ahhh the race card being brought in. Awesome. Elections always bring out the worst sadly, the things people say/do/write to help get someone elected...

And more PC corruption? I thought they reported news, not assumed facts, but thanks for the update. This is why it sucks being a centrist or god forbid leftist in this province. When the corrupt,outdated and stale PCs are what passes for "Liberal" thats pretty weak.

And believe me, stealing taxpayer money might be tough to learn, but bribes from oil companies, I'm sure those will be much easier to accept. /sarcasm(?)

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Ahhh the race card being brought in. Awesome. Elections always bring out the worst sadly, the things people say/do/write to help get someone elected...

And more PC corruption? I thought they reported news, not assumed facts, but thanks for the update. This is why it sucks being a centrist or god forbid leftist in this province. When the corrupt,outdated and stale PCs are what passes for "Liberal" thats pretty weak.

And believe me, stealing taxpayer money might be tough to learn, but bribes from oil companies, I'm sure those will be much easier to accept. /sarcasm(?)

By bribes I assume you are referring to the $15000 that Encana donated to the Wildrose party last year. Much higher than the $14750 that they donated to the P.C. party.
Corporate donations are really quite small when put up against the thousands of individuals who donate to the parties.

[Cowboy89]

^ It seems apparent that Redford's Leadership bid was ran the same way. Identify potential voter groups and then try to piece policy or communication in such a way that you can jizsaw a minority or majority government. The last minute teacher buyoff was to get Liberal ATA members to buy a membership and vote for Allison back in September. Now they are trying to reach out to pretty much anyone not white and male and trying to try and collect blocs of votes.

It's very divisive campaigning and as a white man I feel pretty marginalized when it really should be who would be better to run the government.

[Senator Clay Davis]

I'm sure all the parties, save maybe the NDP, would take the oil bribes. As Clay would say "You think I have time to ask a man why he giving me money? Or where he gets his money from? I'll take any motherf****** money if he giving it away!"

I'd also add those are the contributions just for the corporation. Individuals like say CEOs can donate personally as well.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I'm sure all the parties, save maybe the NDP, would take the oil bribes. As Clay would say "You think I have time to ask a man why he giving me money? Or where he gets his money from? I'll take any motherf****** money if he giving it away!"

I'd also add those are the contributions just for the corporation. Individuals like say CEOs can donate personally as well.

The only oil money that's influencing opinions of Provincial Politicians is the amount of royalties that the province takes in from the budget. Since more oil production optimizes provincial revenues it would be shocking if the politicians did anything overly antagonizing to the oil industry. More oil and gas investment equals more revenue in the provincial coffers. They don't need campaign donations to remind them!

[Senator Clay Davis]

Well for sure, but obviously some parties (i.e. Wildrose, PC) will be more friendly to the oil companies than say, the NDP. If one party is willing to offer better tax breaks, royalty structures, infrastructure investment etc... than the rest, than obviously it sadly is in the best interest of both the oil companies and shareholders to see that party in power.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Believe it or not, I fully expect the Wildrose will become (already is?) corrupted, because as long as politicians are breathing, they will always look out for self-interest ahead of public interest. Not that I blame them, its just human nature to look out for yourself first. Hence why term limits should apply to every position of public office. Make it a duty and service, not a job, and the corruption problem should go away.

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I'm sure all the parties, save maybe the NDP, would take the oil bribes. As Clay would say "You think I have time to ask a man why he giving me money? Or where he gets his money from? I'll take any motherf****** money if he giving it away!"

I'd also add those are the contributions just for the corporation. Individuals like say CEOs can donate personally as well.

Those are some serious allegations you are throwing around. Any proof or even one shred of evidence to support them?

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Well for sure, but obviously some parties (i.e. Wildrose, PC) will be more friendly to the oil companies than say, the NDP. If one party is willing to offer better tax breaks, royalty structures, infrastructure investment etc... than the rest, than obviously it sadly is in the best interest of both the oil companies and shareholders to see that party in power.

It's not a zero-sum game where having a more favorable investment climate for oil and gas companies steals from the provincial treasury. They are correlated and Stelmach's attempt at increasing royalty rates was a perfect example of a higher Provincial take in terms of %, but less in terms of absolute dollars. Getting a bigger piece of a smaller pie (Perfect NDP thinking!). They also failed to take other things into account like value of annual land sales, income taxes collected from drilling crews and economic activity that doesn't happen when royalties increase and investment dollars go elsewhere.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Do I really need proof? I've been following politics now since I was ten (I'm 26). There has yet to be a political party I've seen that when in power there wasn't at least one big scandal or some form of corruption. I accept that its all in the game, elections run on one thing only, dollars. Once a party comes into power no one ever forgets who got them there. Until politicians prove me wrong, I'm sadly going to assume the worst.

As to royalties, I see what you're saying and I'm not for overdoing it like the NDP would. Its impossible for me to make a judgement as to what a fair number to base for royalties because I don't have the financial numbers in front of me. I'm sure theres a number out there that is fair. And lets be real, oil companies are not going to stop exploring, its not like exploring oil will ever be a losing business venture.