Ken King - Is his time coming to an end?

[CaptainYooh]

Ken King is working on the new arena – a job that involves lobbying at the very top levels of municipal, provincial and federal governments. I heard thought the grapevine that some very powerful people are being brought in to help this cause. This is a job that will take at least 4-5 years from now and it is for a local business ambassador, not the outsider and it would be hard to get anyone more qualified for it than King with his connections. Under Ken's tenure, the value of Flames organization has grown from nearly bankrupt to over $250M (estimated). He was a huge part of bringing the money necessary to keep the team in Calgary, when nobody wanted to touch it with a long stick. Now, as the ownership is being consolidated within the smaller number of shareholders and their share values increasing year-over-year, how would anyone even suggest that his job is in jeopardy?

A solid and well-respected VP of Hockey Operations is what's needed, I think, to review and, possibly, re-build the scouting system from scratch. Yes, maybe Bob Nicholson, although I am not sure how he would be able to help the GM to trade existing bad contracts we've got for good ones and bring fresh high draft picks out of nothing. But at least start with scouting... I also think that GM should be a former hockey player or a coach; hence, let Feaster go.

[Northendzone]

While the names of the boys down at hockey Canada (Nicholson and brad pascal) have some sex appeal, to me they maybe lacking in NHL experience. For the most part the teams that these boys manage are teams built for the short term. And it is easy to recruit for those teams. Running an NHL team and hockey Canada may have some similarities, but they are likely very different as well.

I would have expected king to have some input with respect to shutter, Feaster etc. just like I would think that Feaster would have some input on king, or king's possible successor.

The dome is full, and like it or not, the season ticket base does not seem to be changing much. The team has iced a substandard product now for three years, and a return to the playoffs is not in the foreseeable future, and yet folks continue to wait in the hot house, and the renewals keep coming in......

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by North East Goon

Who was the genius behind hiring Feaster without interviewing any other qualified candidates for the GM position?

But....97% renewal rate and the nachos taste delicious!

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Those that want King gone are vastly overestimating what his role with the on ice product is. And if, King truely does have control over the on-ice product, then the real finger needs to be pointed at the morons that gave him that control, the owners.

But I doubt he has much say in the on-ice activities, other than be a mouth piece for the owners in that regards, who I'd wager have a lot more to say than we'd like. If King is truely on the cusp of a new areana deal, as some have mentioned, I'm sure this is not small feet and is appreciated by his employers, and is an accurate reflection of what his job actually is.

[Get-Iggy-With-It]

Over the weekend I spoke with a relatively close friend of Ken's and he said (without directly saying it) that Ken is not the one who is resistant to making major changes to the team's roster. He implied that the real issue, which confirms many of our suspicions, lies with the ownership group because they have enjoyed such financial success for almost a decade now.

But as for King himself, from speaking with his friend, he is not using Feaster as a "puppet master" or "talking head" and is not thoroughly against keeping certain key players. He genuinely wants whats best for the Flames and fans, but at the end of the day his hands are tied as well because he, himself, is not part of the ownership group and, ultimately, they are his boss.

Take this for what it's worth as this was a friend of Ken's and may have only told me things in Ken's best interest.

Mod's feel free to PM for more info regarding my source

[Flamenspiel]

I have to agree with that, its my impression as well that Ken is primarily the public face of the ownership group. It must be difficult position to be in and I wonder if all the owners are of one mind with regards to the direction of the team.

[csnarpy]

Originally Posted by The Goon

I don't care about the on-ice product, but if it was Ken King's decision to get rid of Tim Hortons in the 'Dome, then turf him!

King told me the story behind the Timmy's fiasco and although I can't/won't repeat what was said in confidence, I will say that he nor the Flames had anything to do with their departure.

[Canada 02]

in light of Keenan's interview this morning, this thread needs to be bumped, and so should Ken King

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Canada 02

in light of Keenan's interview this morning, this thread needs to be bumped, and so should Ken King

Wait... you're saying that the President of a profitable company valued in the hundreds of millions of dollars needs to be bumped because a ex-employee he proxy fired said that he takes a hands on approach to the job? Really does not compute.

[North East Goon]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Wait... you're saying that the President of a profitable company valued in the hundreds of millions of dollars needs to be bumped because a ex-employee he proxy fired said that he takes a hands on approach to the job? Really does not compute.

A hands on approach to a department which he is grossly under qualified to be handling.

[JayP]

The problem with Ken King is that he's taking on way too many responsibilities.

Currently he's the president of the Flames, Hitmen, and Roughnecks, is supposed to sit on the board for the Stampeders, is attempting to coordinate the construction of a new building, and by all accounts is involved with on-ice hockey moves.

Obviously the hockey stuff should be nipped at the bud, but regardless of that it's way too many hats for one man to be wearing. Promote him to be the CEO of the Calgary Flames brand they're clearly trying to build (like Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment) and get qualified people to be presidents of the individual teams. I'm sure being president of a sports franchise is hard enough - let alone doing it for 3 franchises while trying to build a arena and entertainment complex and facilitate the purchase of a 4th sports franchise.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by North East Goon

A hands on approach to a department which he is grossly under qualified to be handling.

Allegegadly. All's I'm sayin' is that Keenan obviously isn't an impartial observer.

He's (Ken King) a business man running a business, that is what Calgary Flames Ltd. are... a business. From a business perspective all that matters is that the Flames are a profitable entity.

If you want to argue that he's not maximizing profits as a reason to bump him... sure I'd buy that arguement (maybe not the conclusion, not without loads of raw comparative financial data distilled into layman's terms and exact details of his day to day operations) but that Mike Keenan says he's hands on isn't a reason to bump him.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Allegegadly. All's I'm sayin' is that Keenan obviously isn't an impartial observer.

He's (Ken King) a business man running a business, that is what Calgary Flames Ltd. are... a business. From a business perspective all that matters is that the Flames are a profitable entity.

If you want to argue that he's not maximizing profits as a reason to bump him... sure I'd buy that arguement (maybe not the conclusion, not without loads of raw comparative financial data distilled into layman's terms and exact details of his day to day operations) but that Mike Keenan says he's hands on isn't a reason to bump him.

It is if he's holding back a hockey personnel that knows what he's doing.

Let the GM's GM and do what THEY think is best for the team so a cup can realistically return to Calgary ASAP. KK has done a great done on the business and community end; don't screw around with the hockey side.

[Rikster]

Under Ken's tenure, the value of Flames organization has grown from nearly bankrupt to over $250M (estimated). He was a huge part of bringing the money necessary to keep the team in Calgary, when nobody wanted to touch it with a long stick. Now, as the ownership is being consolidated within the smaller number of shareholders and their share values increasing year-over-year, how would anyone even suggest that his job is in jeopardy?

The people Ken King report to do not worry about the money they made as much as they fret over the money they didn't make...

Not only has the team failed to make the playoffs the past 3 seasons, they are a negative trending organization ...

From a bottom line point of view, the Flames are underperforming...

Another reason owners get involved in pro sports is for the esteem or bragging rights that go with a winning organization...

Under Kings watch, the Flames are now an organization that is either laughed at or pitied...

The Flames got it half right when they punted Sutter, and made it worse when they hired Feaster...

King and Feaster, music to the ears of a Canuck fan...

Take care...

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by Joborule

It is if he's holding back a hockey personnel that knows what he's doing.

Let the GM's GM and do what THEY think is best for the team so a cup can realistically return to Calgary ASAP. KK has done a great done on the business and community end; don't screw around with the hockey side.

Who ever said he's holding back hockey personnel. It's pretty routine that players want assurances from ownership and management above the GM that they are committed to winning and to the player. This is especially true when signing a long term contract as it's pretty normal for GM's to be replaced every 4-5 years. Just look at how Robyn Regehr met with the Sabres ownership and upper management before agreeing to waive his NTC. A General Manager can only make promises for while he's there. Ownership's support is required if a player wants assurances beyond what a GM can give. Given pretty much all the hockey related stuff we hear Ken King and ownership is involved with is hiring and firing related, I have no reason to believe their involvement goes beyond doing due diligence and helping convince players and staff that the Calgary Flames are committed to them.

Also, there's a significant difference in meddling and approving a deal with conditions. Meddling is ownership telling management what to do, essentially making the manager a puppet. I don't think that's what the Flames ownership does at all. For example, if ownership approved the hiring of Keenan but only on a tight rope, then firing Keenan wasn't meddling but simply part of the conditions of hiring him.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Joborule

It is if he's holding back a hockey personnel that knows what he's doing.

And I'm saying that folk needen't and shouldn't accept one quip from an ex-employee with an axe to grind as the gods honest truth of that.

Regardless, presumably Ken King makes business decisions from a business perspective and thus should only be bumped if a reasonable persuasive argument can be made that he's making (on aggregrate) poor business decisions. Which should show up in the teams bottom line. I feel relatively confident that should Calgary Flames Ltd. become on aggregrate a money losing venture that Ken King would be bumped.

Originally Posted by Joborule

Let the GM's GM and do what THEY think is best for the team so a cup can realistically return to Calgary ASAP.

You're not thinking from a business perspective... from a business perspective it doesn't matter whether any cups come to Calgary ever. From a business perspective (again on aggregrate) Zero Cups + Profit is better then Many Cups + Loss. Now realistically speaking many cups should correlate with Profit but that's neither here nor there. In regards to Ken Kings job the performance of the team on the ice is entirely secondary to the performance of the team in the wallet.

If you want to make a compelling arguement that he should be bumped bring forward conclusive evidence that...

A: Ken King fails to properly delegate (and no, the contents of MK interview is not conclusive evidence);
B: That improper delegation results in negative, stagnant, or otherwise unmaximized profit for the Calgary Flames;
C: That profit differential isn't offset by any reasonable superior performance measure over the whole of Calgary Flames Ltd.

I'm not saying that Ken King is good or bad at his job. I, nor anyone else on CP I imagine, don't have the information to make that determination. All I'm saying is that determining that Ken King ought to be bumped on account a short radio interview by Mike Keenan is beyond silly.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by sworkhard

Who ever said he's holding back hockey personnel. It's pretty routine that players want assurances from ownership and management above the GM that they are committed to winning and to the player. This is especially true when signing a long term contract as it's pretty normal for GM's to be replaced every 4-5 years. Just look at how Robyn Regehr met with the Sabres ownership and upper management before agreeing to waive his NTC. A General Manager can only make promises for while he's there. Ownership's support is required if a player wants assurances beyond what a GM can give. Given pretty much all the hockey related stuff we hear Ken King and ownership is involved with is hiring and firing related, I have no reason to believe their involvement goes beyond doing due diligence and helping convince players and staff that the Calgary Flames are committed to them.

Also, there's a significant difference in meddling and approving a deal with conditions. Meddling is ownership telling management what to do, essentially making the manager a puppet. I don't think that's what the Flames ownership does at all. For example, if ownership approved the hiring of Keenan but only on a tight rope, then firing Keenan wasn't meddling but simply part of the conditions of hiring him.

What if ownership told Darryl to fix the Flames 9 game losing streak at all cost? Thus the 72 hours of D. Sutter madness?

What if ownership told Feaster we are not selling after Feaster blew a gasket just before trade deadline this year? Especially since it was pretty clear Flames should be sellers at that point?

Before I thought Darryl went crazy. But with Keenan comments and Feaster having to backtrack on what he said, I think it's warranted to truly believe that those above the GM chair are getting too involved by overruling the GM decisions, which has come back to bite us in the ass.

I'm not saying that the president and ownership can't be in any way, shape, or fashion involved in hockey operations. After all they're the highest position people so they should have their say. And their presence in regards to hockey transactions can be an asset at times. But you gotta have faith that your GMs will make the best decisions possible. They're suppose to be the smartest hockey personnel in the whole entire hierarchy. If Feaster thought we should be sellers, let us be sellers rather than overruling him. If you don't trust Feaster word then why is he the GM?

Look what ownership involvement has brought to the Oakland Radiers and Dallas Cowboys.

[Stay Golden]

Personally as a STH I would like KKing to remain on the business end of affairs with the Flames but publicly I would prefer to hear from less and less about the hockey team operations.
All hockey team relating personal, drafting, scouting etc should be addressed by Feaster and Weisenbrod only to the fan base.
I'm just sick of hearing from KKing about matters related to the team in which he just puts a red herring on the various subjects anyways.

Same as now the Stampeders sigh, seen not heard.

As for the meddling with the team, there is no proof that is going on but I do think that the Owners via KKing have been meddling in what should be Feasters control on things.
I don't feel Feaster is fully being allowed to make the decisions he and his staff are capable of.

[stanleycup1989]

Originally Posted by bluck

We've all heard it... full scale changes are going to happen.. Does this mean Ken King has his job on the line as well?

A true change of culture would involve King/Sutter/half of this room gone. I feel King's job should be on the line and in my opinion full scale changes start with him getting the axe. What good has he done the last few years other then ramble on and potentially handcuff our GM. (now I know he can't really do much else.. but it seems he still holds a lot of the cards with regards to trades/drafting etc..)

Changes need to be made.. and I feel it's time for a new "King"

Checkmate

Hopefully!

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Parallex

And I'm saying that folk needen't and shouldn't accept one quip from an ex-employee with an axe to grind as the gods honest truth of that.

Don't think anyone saying what Keenan said is 100% true. We don't know that for absolute sure, or if it was if it's still the case. But considering the events that have occurred we ought to have the right to speculate off of this information no? Besides why would Keenan lie or spin his story a certain way? What does he gain from that?

Regardless, presumably Ken King makes business decisions from a business perspective and thus should only be bumped if a reasonable persuasive argument can be made that he's making (on aggregrate) poor business decisions. Which should show up in the teams bottom line. I feel relatively confident that should Calgary Flames Ltd. become on aggregrate a money losing venture that Ken King would be bumped.

And lets say KK is being a very hands on guy which causes Flames to continue to miss the playoffs for more consecutive seasons without improvement. The bottom line will start dipping down. We aren't Toronto or Montreal. There are some people on this board that believe this market is very casual, can't handle a rebuild and would lose a ton of fan support if Flames don't get back to winning ways shortly. I don't agree that the market is that fickle but if Flames continue with disappointing season conclusions like we had of late, I believe the market will show apathy.

It's pretty easy to sell tickets when your team followed a miracle run by making the playoffs each season after. Harder when your golfing come April.

You're not thinking from a business perspective... from a business perspective it doesn't matter whether any cups come to Calgary ever. From a business perspective (again on aggregrate) Zero Cups + Profit is better then Many Cups + Loss. Now realistically speaking many cups should correlate with Profit but that's neither here nor there. In regards to Ken Kings job the performance of the team on the ice is entirely secondary to the performance of the team in the wallet.

Thing is success is a very important attribute in sports business. Icing a successful team = money. In fact Many cups plus losses makes no sense. Flames playing hockey until May/June is MUCH more profit than playing hockey until April only. Building a team that will be contender will get the Flames much more revenue than continually paying for a mediocre team. If ownership is alright with the latter then they should stop spending up to the cap.

If you want to make a compelling arguement that he should be bumped bring forward conclusive evidence that...

A: Ken King fails to properly delegate (and no, the contents of MK interview is not conclusive evidence);
B: That improper delegation results in negative, stagnant, or otherwise unmaximized profit for the Calgary Flames;
C: That profit differential isn't offset by any reasonable superior performance measure over the whole of Calgary Flames Ltd.

I'm not saying that Ken King is good or bad at his job. I, nor anyone else on CP I imagine, don't have the information to make that determination. All I'm saying is that determining that Ken King ought to be bumped on account a short radio interview by Mike Keenan is beyond silly.

No one here posting actually interacts with the Flames organization and knows what goes on there. So we're just speculating off of smoke we have seen built up as of late. When Keenan say this and Dreger (who I first didn't believe) says that, more times than not there is something happening.

Like I said KK has done good on the business side. But he's not a hockey guy and if he's trying to be one it might be negatively affecting not just the hockey roster potential but the business itself. His influence could be preventing the Flames from profit growth since we're icing an inefficient roster as well may have a inefficient roster roadmap. (Plan for roster down the road) Profit growth doesn't occur since the on ice results that will not allow the Flames to play more than 41 home games or jack up the prices while still having a sellout demand; not to mention merchandise sells boosts.