Harpers F35s not quite cleared for takeoff

[KelVarnsen]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Doubtful that McKay will be removed from National Defense. First and foremost he's probably the best defense minister that Canada has had since the late 40's. He stepped into a portfolio that nobody wanted and that successive governments destroyed.

While it hasn't stopped he's gone a long ways towards reversing the damage done to the Military under successive Liberal and to an extent Mulrooney's conservative government.

He's stopped the inevitable collapse of the Canadian Forces and returned it to being a very mission capable military.

I would expect at some point that Lockheed Martin will probably get subsidized by the U.S. government to complete the F-35 and allow it to get delivered to its allied at near the original price quoted. If that doesn't happen and they permanently lose their international orders for the F-35 and see the reduction of domestic orders then Lockheed Martin could be in serious trouble as they have rolled the dice with the F-35 as being one of the most numerous fighter jets in the world and the defacto standard for Western Airforces.

So the US helping out Lockheed Martin is ok, but Canada helping out Air Canada isn't....

[karl262]

Buying a new fighter plane that will secure Canadian airspace for the next 40 years is not like buying a new printer for every office in a federal building. Yes, there is a technical format that all government agencies are supposed to perform in any type of procurement; request for proposals and so on. If the DND started looking for their next fighter jet "by the book" what would that have resulted in? Bids from Russian and Chinese firms that we would never buy from in the first place? Bids from European suppliers that would greatly lengthen the supply and support chain? Realistically, what other options are there besides the F-35? We need to have a 5th generation airplane, and we need to replace our aging fleet. They will cost what they cost, we have already invested in their development, and we should provide our pilots with the best available equipment that is easily integrated with our neighbors to the south.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by KelVarnsen

So the US helping out Lockheed Martin is ok, but Canada helping out Air Canada isn't....

If the US wants to help out Air Canada too, that'd be just fine.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by karl262

Buying a new fighter plane that will secure Canadian airspace for the next 40 years is not like buying a new printer for every office in a federal building. Yes, there is a technical format that all government agencies are supposed to perform in any type of procurement; request for proposals and so on. If the DND started looking for their next fighter jet "by the book" what would that have resulted in? Bids from Russian and Chinese firms that we would never buy from in the first place? Bids from European suppliers that would greatly lengthen the supply and support chain? Realistically, what other options are there besides the F-35? We need to have a 5th generation airplane, and we need to replace our aging fleet. They will cost what they cost, we have already invested in their development, and we should provide our pilots with the best available equipment that is easily integrated with our neighbors to the south.

The government screwed up and should have just come out and said in the first place that there were to be no other options on the table but they didn't have the balls to do that and go against the federal mandates about going back to market and getting fair competition for everything so they wiggled their way in and out (changing the numbers, avoiding direct answers, being found in contempt, etc.) and that's where all this controversy comes from.

They should have just said from the beginning that we were going to buy these at whatever price they ended up as as we have already committed a sizable investment into development and built up the Canadian aerospace industry to be integrated with the development and support of this fighter.

What the Harper government should probably do now is to deflect blame to the Americans to get some heat off of them. If you contract with a company to supply you with something and you commit your budget years in advance and that company suddenly says that the prices are going up, you fight it. Canada should be fighting this with Lockheed Martin and the U.S. Government right now. They should even try to spread this fight out and get our other allies (many Western powers have bought into the F-35 program) to also complain about skyrocketing costs. Pressure the U.S. Government and let them deal with it if they want to maintain goodwill with their allies, continue selling us their expensive weapons, etc.

[karl262]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

The government screwed up and should have just come out and said in the first place that there were to be no other options on the table but they didn't have the balls to do that and go against the federal mandates about going back to market and getting fair competition for everything so they wiggled their way in and out (changing the numbers, avoiding direct answers, being found in contempt, etc.) and that's where all this controversy comes from.

They should have just said from the beginning that we were going to buy these at whatever price they ended up as as we have already committed a sizable investment into development and built up the Canadian aerospace industry to be integrated with the development and support of this fighter.

What the Harper government should probably do now is to deflect blame to the Americans to get some heat off of them. If you contract with a company to supply you with something and you commit your budget years in advance and that company suddenly says that the prices are going up, you fight it. Canada should be fighting this with Lockheed Martin and the U.S. Government right now. They should even try to spread this fight out and get our other allies (many Western powers have bought into the F-35 program) to also complain about skyrocketing costs. Pressure the U.S. Government and let them deal with it if they want to maintain goodwill with their allies, continue selling us their expensive weapons, etc.

Anyone who really looks into the matter can figure this our pretty easily. Maybe they don't feel it's necessary to state the obvious.

[afc wimbledon]

I'm not sure the US goverment needs the bloody things let alone us. It would seem fairly clear the US is inexerably moving to an all drone air force within a few decades.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Did they actually find the government in contempt over the F35 issue?

I think a lot of people saw the contempt stuff as nothing more than partisan games. Problem is that the opposition cried wolf so many times on stupid little things that people stopped listening.

Remember wafergate?

Yes. The government refused to provide information and finally was found in contempt.

Originally Posted by SebC

How? If we need the planes, parliament can't change the cost.

Right, but when the government has information and doesn't release it, how is parliament supposed to make a decision? Either DND wasn't forthright or cabinet was misleading.

I can totally see why no one is too concerned though. Its only billions of dollars and probably the biggest defence contract the country has ever signed. Lets just brush aside an obvious problem that the AG found here and spend, spend, spend.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by KelVarnsen

So the US helping out Lockheed Martin is ok, but Canada helping out Air Canada isn't....

I didn't say one way or the other.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I'm not sure the US goverment needs the bloody things let alone us. It would seem fairly clear the US is inexerably moving to an all drone air force within a few decades.

I haven't seen any Strategic publications around the American's moving towards a drone airforce in that quick a time frame.

Until you get a whole other level of AI and a whole other level of completely secure and uninteruptable instand 2 way communication that can't be jammed its not going to happen.

I don't see any nations moving towards a remote controlled airforce. I do see a ton of money being spent by each of the major countries being spent on next generation manned fighter technology with an emphasis on airframe, speed and stealth and advanced avionics and communication links.

I honestly don't see a viable drone alternative for another 3 or 4 generations of jet fighter technology that will be widely integrated.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by KelVarnsen

So the US helping out Lockheed Martin is ok, but Canada helping out Air Canada isn't....

Plus if they did for example, it would make more sense. First and foremost Lockheed Martin could be considered to be a solid investment even with the F35 problems, They were profitable last year. They have 126,000 employees currently as well, they provide the U.S. government with a lot of their high tech Military equipment and munitions. I don't recall them every requiring bailouts before but I could be wrong on that.

On the other hand Air Canada is a badly run organization with an inept and greedy management team that sucks money out of that organization, they have severe union problems, they're not offering a unique service anymore and it could be argued that their competitor is doing a far better job then Air Canada.

Lockheed Martin is completely different. However they did roll a major risk with the F35 program, and the potential loss of international deals for the F35 and also the possible internal reduction on the U.S. order for the F35 could severely impact the company.

Its also more then likely that the American government could actually see a return on investment with Lockheed Martin, whereas with Air Canada they would take that check, turn it into a bunch of bonus checks, then what's left of that would go to appease the Unions. and then go crying back to the government with thier hands held out.

If your asking hypothetically which is what I'm arguing. Lockheed Martin would more then likely not be a bad company for the American govenrment to work with to protect that contract from a defense concept and from a possibility of getting paid back on that investment. Air Canada would not be.

But the American Government probably shouldn't try to bail out Air Canada.

[HELPNEEDED]

Originally Posted by KelVarnsen

So the US helping out Lockheed Martin is ok, but Canada helping out Air Canada isn't....

Just an FYI, one is a airline while the other is a manufacturer.

[Red Ice Player]

Originally Posted by SebC

I thought it was Government of Canada, not Harper Government, but there you go.

Harper Government=CBC speak. I don't recall hearing "Chrétien Government" when the Liberals were in power. Its the most obvious sign of the CBC bias.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Red Ice Player

Harper Government=CBC speak. I don't recall hearing "Chrétien Government" when the Liberals were in power. Its the most obvious sign of the CBC bias.

Its not just CBC speak. The Conservatives were fond of referring to this when things were all good, or referring to the Conservative government.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Red Ice Player

Harper Government=CBC speak. I don't recall hearing "Chrétien Government" when the Liberals were in power. Its the most obvious sign of the CBC bias.

They did it all the time. Why do you suddenly want to make this a thread to bash the CBC? That seems kind of beside the issue.

It should be a thread about accountability. Regardless of who you do vote for or will vote for in the future, if there appear to be shenanigans then it needs to be investigated. Especially if the issue is billions of dollars.

Do we need the planes? Absolutely. We need helicopters too - that contract should never have been cancelled and that was a total travesty. The entire air fleet needs to be replaced after years of woeful neglect. But in this case the air needs to be cleared and the process needs to be transparent.

[Tinordi]

This is turning into quite the boondoggle. Timing is lucky for Conservatives being far from an election because the whole think stinks.

http://www.cbc.ca/thenational/indept...ue-040312.html

[Tinordi]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2391501/

The Auditor-General’s damning indictment of deception and mismanagement over the F-35 fighter-jet program not only damages the Conservatives’ reputation for probity, it also discredits their extreme rhetoric against the opposition. Because the opposition was right.

Stephen Harper has now moved swiftly to place the procurement on a sounder footing. But the revelations of false estimates and suppressed information, coming only days after an austerity budget, could tarnish the Conservative brand like nothing that has come before.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

This is turning into quite the boondoggle. Timing is lucky for Conservatives being far from an election because the whole think stinks.

http://www.cbc.ca/thenational/indept...ue-040312.html

Seriously, this is a must watch.

[burn_this_city]

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Seriously, this is a must watch.

Andrew Coyne seems like a good negative spin master

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Andrew Coyne seems like a good negative spin master

Hard to spin this as anything but.

And Andrew Coyne is a very conservative commentator.