Transgendered Miss Universe Canada finalist disqualified

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I generally agree with you, that said though 20 percent of post op transexuals are unhappy with their life after the operation and 18 percent attempt suicide, it is a hell of long painfull dificult process that doesn't seem to make alot of those that go through it happy, I don't want to sound like I don't think anyone should go that route I am just deeply conflicted that a medical profession doesn't question what they are doing and how they are doing it, on top of this it has also become a deeply political issue with the LGBT lobby becoming incensed if any one suggests that there might be better options for a fair chunk of transgendered patients, or, god forbid, that some of them might actually have mental health issues, rather than the wrong body.

Yes, but you need to consider that pre-op they would have been just as likely, if not more likely, to have commited suicide. I don't have time to dig up number right now but over 1/3 of pre-op GRS patients had actually attempted suicide. Almost 70% had seriously considered it.

I don't know the actual percentage for successful suicides, but I know it is about twice the national average.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The reality is the medical profession has never really questioned whether any of this makes sense, they have always approached it from the 'we have the technology' point of view[/I]

This is complete balogna. I'm guessing you're a social worker?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

This is complete balogna. I'm guessing you're a social worker?

Nope child care worker

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Yes, but you need to consider that pre-op they would have been just as likely, if not more likely, to have commited suicide. I don't have time to dig up number right now but over 1/3 of pre-op GRS patients had actually attempted suicide. Almost 70% had seriously considered it.

I don't know the actual percentage for successful suicides, but I know it is about twice the national average.

Oh I am not doubting that most all are tremendously unhappy, which is what the operations are supposed to 'cure', the point is for at least a quarter of them the procedure appears to have not helped them which leads me to question whether it was the right idea in the first place.

[Rathji]

I assume you have worked with people that have various medical conditions with the work that you do, so you obviously realize that no one treatment is a guaranteed cure for any condition.

It isn't perfect for everyone, and I don't doubt that people go into it expecting a lot more than they get. Even if they have surgery, it doesn't mean their troubles are magically over. They have to deal with family and friends that reject them. They need to deal with alienation from many or all social groups. They need to deal with so much stuff that would drive a normal person to the edge, so if not all of them are able to cope, then I would not be surprised.

That does not mean that the treatment is wrong though, but it is an indicator that something is wrong with the system in general.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I assume you have worked with people that have various medical conditions with the work that you do, so you obviously realize that no one treatment is a guaranteed cure for any condition.

It isn't perfect for everyone, and I don't doubt that people go into it expecting a lot more than they get. Even if they have surgery, it doesn't mean their troubles are magically over. They have to deal with family and friends that reject them. They need to deal with alienation from many or all social groups. They need to deal with so much stuff that would drive a normal person to the edge, so if not all of them are able to cope, then I would not be surprised.

That does not mean that the treatment is wrong though, but it is an indicator that something is wrong with the system in general.

My beef with the treatment is I think it has become so mainstream now that I don't think they really question why someone wants it, granted there is an arduous process of living like a woman and counseling, but it is all to get someone ready for the treatment, not to explore whether they are really transgendered, I think alot of this is due to politics, transgender clinics by neccesity are very connected to the LGBT community and to suggest that mayne a fairly large percentage of their patients are not actually transgendered but might have latched on to it due to some other disorder or deep seated need would virtually ensure closure right now, the push is not to make it harder but to make it easier for much younger patients.

Im going to post a big chunk from Wiki here, because although I had always had my doubts about the efficacy of transgendered treatment just because the results seemed so poor, it was when I read about this I thought there has to be some conection here.

Body integrity identity disorder

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID), formerly known as Amputee Identity Disorder, is a psychological disorder wherein sufferers feel they would be happier living as an amputee. It is typically accompanied by the desire to amputate one or more healthy limbs to achieve that end.
The most widely accepted current theory on the origin of BIID is that it is a neurological failing of the brain's inner body mapping function (located in the right parietal lobe). According to this theory, the brain mapping does not incorporate the affected limb in its understanding of the body's physical form. (Mysteries of the Mind, Secret Life of the Brain E2, TVO documentary)

A person with BIID typically wants one or more limbs (sometimes just hands) amputated. While the official definition of BIID includes only a desire for amputation, Dr. Michael B. First, an author of the upcoming DSM-V who first defined BIID, has agreed in principle that BIID could include a need for other impairments, such as paraplegia or partial paralysis of a limb.
Symptoms of BIID sufferers are often keenly felt. The sufferer feels incomplete with four limbs, but is confident amputation will fix this. The sufferer knows exactly what part of which limb should be amputated to relieve the suffering. The sufferer has intense feelings of envy toward amputees. They often pretend, both in private and in public, that they are an amputee. The sufferer recognizes the above symptoms as being strange and unnatural. They feel alone in having these thoughts, and don't believe anyone could ever understand their urges. They may try to injure themselves to require the amputation of that limb. They generally are ashamed of their thoughts and try to hide them from others, including therapists and health care professionals.
The majority of BIID sufferers are white middle-aged males, although this discrepancy may not be nearly as large as previously thought. [1] The most common request is an above-the-knee amputation of the left leg.

Today, no surgeons will treat BIID patients by performing the desired amputations. Some act out their desires, pretending they are amputees using prostheses and other tools to ease their desire to be one. Some sufferers have reported to the media or by interview over the telephone with researchers that they have resorted to self-amputation of a "superfluous" limb, for example by allowing a train to run over it, or by damaging the limb so badly that surgeons will have to amputate it. However, the medical literature records few, if any, cases of actual self amputation.[4] Often the obsession is with one specific limb. A patient might say, for example, that they "do not feel complete" while they still have a left leg. However, BIID does not simply involve amputation. It involves any wish to significantly alter body integrity. Some people suffer from the desire to become paralyzed, blind, deaf, use orthopaedic appliances such as leg-braces, etc. Some people spend time pretending they are an amputee by using crutches and wheelchairs at home or in public; in the BIID community, this is called a "pretender." The condition is usually treated as a psychiatric disorder.
Exact causes for BIID are unknown. One theory states that the psyche of a child seeing an amputee, may imprint on this body image as an "ideal." Another popular theory suggests that a child who feels unloved may believe that becoming an amputee will attract sympathy and love. The biological theory is that BIID is a neuro-psychological condition in which there is an anomaly in the cerebral cortex relating to the limbs; cf. Proprioception. If the condition is neurological, it could be conceptualized as a congenital form of somatoparaphrenia, a condition that often follows a stroke that affects the parietal lobe. Since the right side of the inferior-parietal lobule—which is directly related with proprioception—is significantly smaller in men than women, a malfunction of this area could potentially explain not only why men are much more likely to have BIID, but also why requests for amputations most often concern left-side limbs. (The right side of the brain controls the left side of the body and vice versa.) If the condition is similar to somatophrenia, it could have the same "cure"—vestibular caloric stimulation. In simple terms it involves squirting cold water in the patient's right ear

[SeeBass]

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Maybe I am old school, but woman shouldn't be given the vote.

I am not sure if you are trolling or if you actually believe that is a valid comeback.

[LChoy]

I found this article in the Huffingtonpost. Very good perspective on why someone would change their gender


Transgender Author: Why I Decided To Become A Woman

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...ef=transgender

To her, I am sacrificing our family for a panty-hosed version of a typical male midlife crisis, abdicating relationships and responsibilities to roar off on the Harley-Davidson of transsexuality (the metaphor is hers) toward a fluffy pink Shangri-la of self-centered gratification.
But I don’t see myself in her bitter mirror, because I’m not transitioning for the sake of happiness. I have no illusions that becoming a jobless, homeless approximation of a middle-aged woman is a recipe for bliss. This isn’t a typical male midlife crisis—it’s a typical transsexual midlife crisis.

That’s what’s so hard to explain. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being a man—at least, I have nothing to add to the complaints women traditionally make about the opposite sex. What’s bad about being a man is that I’m not one.

The more I outwardly surrendered my life to those around me, the more I thought about gender. When I walked to the bathroom, I thought about gender; when I sang my daughters to sleep, I thought about gender; when I sat in my office, I thought about gender; when I stood in the classroom, I thought about gender. Finally, I realized I was thinking about gender every waking minute. There was no relief anymore, no moment when I was unaware of my estrangement from my skin.

In the name of being a husband and father, I had turned gender dysphoria from a chronic discomfort and occasional crisis into a system of torture. For years, being a man had been a habit. Now, being a man was a matter of constant self-denial, a desperate failing effort to control the rage for transformation that seemed to be all that was left of me.

My absence of connection to life— that numbness where a feeling of physical presence and aliveness should have been—shattered into two overwhelming, contradictory imperatives: the need to become the true self I had never been and the need to die before that self ’s emergence fatally injured my family. Being a man, for me, was a performance, and most people were not only willing but eager to take that performance for me.

A body is there, but it’s not yours. A voice is coming out of your throat, but you don’t recognize it. The mirror contains another person’s face. When your children wrap their arms around you, they seem to be hugging someone else. Every morning you wake up shocked to find that parts of you have disappeared, that you are smothered in flesh you cannot recognize as yours. That you have lost the body you never had. This isn’t me, you say to yourself. This isn’t me, you say to anyone you trust. Of course it isn’t. There is no “me,” no body that fits the map, no identity that fits your sense of self, no way to orient yourself in a world in which you exist only as an hysterical rejection of what, to everyone around you, is the simple, obvious fact of your gender.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Lchoy

I found this article in the Huffingtonpost. Very good perspective on why someone would change their gender


Transgender Author: Why I Decided To Become A Woman

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...ef=transgender

All of this can be equally applied to various other forms of body dismorphia, including anorexia but only in the case of gender do we, metaphorically speaking, say, 'makes sense to me, lets get that tackle cut off'

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

I am not sure if you are trolling or if you actually believe that is a valid comeback.

Well I don't think refusing to call her what she is is valid either.

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Well I don't think refusing to call her what she is is valid either.

Then we will have to agree to disagree. I don't feel that a guy who chops off his junk and gets a boob job (simplified version) is suddenly a woman. It may make him look like one but that is about it.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

Then we will have to agree to disagree. I don't feel that a guy who chops off his junk and gets a boob job (simplified version) is suddenly a woman. It may make him look like one but that is about it.

Well that's for her to decide not you lol. Blanketing ignorance as "old school" doesn't make it okay either.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Oh I am not doubting that most all are tremendously unhappy, which is what the operations are supposed to 'cure', the point is for at least a quarter of them the procedure appears to have not helped them which leads me to question whether it was the right idea in the first place.

So it has helped 75% of them? Sounds worthwhile to me.

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Well that's for her to decide not you lol. Blanketing ignorance as "old school" doesn't make it okay either.

So if we took a look at this person scientifically what would the results be? If there was an operation to change my skin colour can I get legal status as a minority? I am sure plastic surgery is available that could define my features as such.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

So if we took a look at this person scientifically what would the results be? If there was an operation to change my skin colour can I get legal status as a minority? I am sure plastic surgery is available that could define my features as such.

Is this some sort of slippery slope arguement?

If she wants to be referred to as a female, then I respect that. I don't see why you wouldn't either to be honest.

[mikey_the_redneck]

They made the right call here......


It's going to be hard for this person to join any gender specific competition or team sport that takes itself seriously.

I see Manshe ending up on a womans rec. hockey team somewhere in Quebec.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I see Manshe ending up on a womans rec. hockey team somewhere in Quebec.

You're kind of a piece of crap, you know that?

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Is this some sort of slippery slope arguement?

If she wants to be referred to as a female, then I respect that. I don't see why you wouldn't either to be honest.

I really don't care how he/she wishes to be referred to. My original statement was that being kicked out was justified. Allowing transgender into gender segregated competitions could lead to an impossible to navigate minefield.

As for the slippery slope, perhaps you could explain to me why this condition is special or exceptional.

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

All of this can be equally applied to various other forms of body dismorphia, including anorexia but only in the case of gender do we, metaphorically speaking, say, 'makes sense to me, lets get that tackle cut off'

afc wimbledon also provided some interesting material about BIID. What stood out from that article for me was:

Today, no surgeons will treat BIID patients by performing the desired amputations.

So once again - why is the transgender issue an exception?

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

You're kind of a piece of crap, you know that?

Try to lighten up a little.....

You're such a funny guy after all...