Air Canada serves lockout notice to pilots

[CaptainCrunch]

It goes beyond the executive members and the union, they have a corporate culture based on arrogance, they also have had a massive safety net built for them by the government so that they don't fail.

Air Canada will continue to be terrible, employ rude uncaring and in a number of cases lazy uninvolved employees until the Government of Canada turns the taps off and they're forced to rebuild their organization.

They have some good assets that could form a good base for themselves or another company if it steps in, but they really need to gut their executive team, reduce their work force and make everyone who's left take a customer service course.

One of the worst run and most entitled organizations in the country.

It wasn't that long ago that the Government of Canada was complaining that the Saudi Airline was heavily subsidized by its government and thus had unfair advantages. They need to look in the mirror.

[WhiteTiger]

I'm on vacation with my wife, and we flew out to Ft.Lauderdale yesterday via AC. We are flying back via Westjet. (This was pre-planned, due to better times/rates).

Yesterday, we got to the airport bright and early. Our flight left at 7am. We expect to fly from Calgary to Montreal, wait 6 hours, and then fly to Ft.L. We sit around, and they start boarding. We hear an announcement that AC has changed the plane size, and that they can't fit everyone on. We hear our names called, and we head up to the front. It turns out that they've put us on a flight leaving right away, but for Toronto, not Montreal. They print us off new boarding passes and we run to the gate in question (It wasn't too far away) and we are the last people on.

The flight was smooth, except that one guy complained his TV wasn't working. They shut the system down to restart it...and were never able to get it back for anyone. We all got vouchers for something. Probably some $$ off a later flight.

We get to Toronto, and our connecting flight is only 5 hours away. Nice. So we go through US customs and head over to our gate. Being quite early, there's a different plane in front of us. We're in an area with 5 other gates, too. In the 5 hours I was there, I heard planes from every single gate say they were late, or changed in size. One fellow sitting across from us was getting more and more angry. I didn't blame him. It was 5pm when he finally got on a flight, after getting to the airport at 6am, and getting bumped 3 times. Our new plane was an hour late (It was windy in Chicago, apparently...)

We ended up in Ft.L earlier than we expected. But I am very, very glad that we didn't check any bags or who knows when/where they would have shown up.

[DementedReality]

i fly quite a bit and prefer AC to Westjet to be frank.

1) WJ thinks their poop doesnt stink and quite frankly they are just like any other crappy airline
2) with AC, i get status miles, which i can use to upgrade to business class, access their lounge and other perks
3) the inflight entertainment system is miles better than Westjet. on demand, no charge movies and tv shows.
4) further to point 3 ... right in the middle of watching a TV show, the pilot will come and blabber on about how he appreciated we chose westjet, blah, blah, blah. then the flight attendant will want to play amateur comedian and tell stupid jokes that any one who has flown on WJ more than twice has already heard. haha, groan. meanwhile, you missed the end of a show.
5) if not as in point 4, they lose TV signal and you cant see yur show.
6) AC seats are wider and more comfortable

Now I do agree AC flight attendants are battle axes and treat the cattle class like 2nd class citizens. BUt frankly, I have flown on many many airlines and AC ranks pretty darn high for inflight experiance. Of course they have had challenges and they have some pretty rude and out of touch people working for them, but I do feel westjet isnt too far behind in the arrogance department, they really are losing touch with what made them who they are.

i also hate that everytime i am overseas, AC is going on strike. i am flying home for Thailand tomorrow via Hong Kong with AC. are they going to strand me in HKG?

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Your assertion is that if fares were to double, nobody would buy the air canada planes out of the bankruptcy court or take over the leases, or get some other planes and start a new airline?

Also, as to your point about going to Sao Paulo via Denver and Mexico City, that's ridiculous. Right now Air Canada will fly anyone not in YYC/YVR to Sao Paulo via Toronto. (ie, 1 stop)

Last summer I flew United to Sao Paulo with one stop via Chicago. There are also one stop options via Houston (formerly continental, now United) and Dallas (AA). So if Air Canada wasn't around we'd fly to Sao Paulo in one stop, exactly the same as now.

If Air Canada cancelled the flights from Calgary to Frankfurt, it would take Lufthansa about 15 minutes to restart their flight. If Air Canada cancelled the flights from Calgary to London, British Airways would increase and/or Virgin Airways would start up service. We'd get enough foreign lift to hold us over until a domestic airline got started up again.

This is exactly it.

In fact, as of right now, foreign airlines want to have more and better flights into Canada but are limited from doing so.

One good example is Emirates, who wanted to offer nonstop service into Calgary and Vancouver from Dubai but were denied by the Canadian government. If there was no Air Canada, these types of requests would be more likely to be approved.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by DementedReality

Now I do agree AC flight attendants are battle axes and treat the cattle class like 2nd class citizens. BUt frankly, I have flown on many many airlines and AC ranks pretty darn high for inflight experiance. Of course they have had challenges and they have some pretty rude and out of touch people working for them, but I do feel westjet isnt too far behind in the arrogance department, they really are losing touch with what made them who they are.

Although to me it seems like the WestJet flight attendants are solely concerned with the fact that my iPad is on 10 minutes before the flight is even ready to take off and they'll stop at nothing to ensure that I will turn it off.

[puckluck]

I find it funny that just yesterday I visited a bunch of travel agencies and every single one of them straight out told me if you're trying to get the best deal we will try to avoid Air Canada.

And they wonder why they are always in financial crisis? When travel agencies avoid you to get the best deal, you have a serious problem on your hands.

[wpgflamesfan]

Originally Posted by puckluck

I find it funny that just yesterday I visited a bunch of travel agencies and every single one of them straight out told me if you're trying to get the best deal we will try to avoid Air Canada.

And they wonder why they are always in financial crisis? When travel agencies avoid you to get the best deal, you have a serious problem on your hands.

The prices on Air Canada and Westjet are usually exactly the same (which actually grinds my gears since they remind me a lot of some of the budget airlines in Europe minus the fact you get a drink and can check a bag for free).

[Ryan Coke]

By and large AC matches Westjet flights on price. They had too.

When they were higher they lot many bookings and lost a ton of money and market share. By matching they lose less money and lose market share more slowly.

[Barnet Flame]

I've had good and bad experiences with AC. Back in the day I preferred to fly Canadian because the service was appreciably better with them. That said, on the last occasion I flew AC, the service from their call center staff was outstanding.

I was stuck in Calgary as a result of the Icelandic volcano. In the early stages of the eruption, there wasn't even an indication of when air routes would resume and as the eruptions continued, more and more of European airspace was shut down.

This was a situation completely beyond the control of AC. Their call center staff must have been completely inundated on a relentless basis. Yet every time I contacted them for information and reschedule my flight back to London, I was dealt with professionally, sensitively and genuine efforts were made to ensure I got on a flight at the earliest opportunity. As it happens a big storm hit when I was sat on the plane to eventually return to London and it was really touch and go as to whether we'd be taking off!

I digress - my point is, when there was a real emergency and when I really needed to rely on AC, they delivered for me and I really appreciate that - even though I'm flying over this month on BA. This is the first time since BA started the LHR-YYC route that they were cheaper on the dates I wanted and it means I'll get an extra day on the slopes.

[billybob123]

You only get status miles with AC if you don't fly in their Tango class; lucky to those whose companies pay for it. Mine is "lowest fare". So, guess what? No more status. And guess what else? No more work travel.

I fly whichever airline is cheaper. Because I have to.

[GP_Matt]

This seems like the right place for the question.
Does anyone know who makes the rules regarding electronics on a plane and what the justification is? I find it odd that a passive unit like an e-reader is not allowed for take-off or landing when I can have a 5 pound hard cover on my lap the whole time. Also just about everyone has a cell phone in their pocket and I am sure that a few of them forget to turn them off. The last one is headphones. Why are ear buds allowed but noise canceling headphones are not? Why is it safe if the headphones are plugged into their entertainment system but not if the cord runs into your pocket?
These rules seem so random and they are randomly enforced/applied by different carriers.

[SeeBass]

I'm sorry but when I want to fly for business I fly AC.

WJ is fine if I am on holiday and I am heading to Palm Springs or Hawaii with the rest of the tourists.

It is not even WJ that is the problem to me it is customers who bother me. These less than often flyers are so slow through security and the stupidity and rudeness you see more often than on an AC flight.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by NBC

---------
My sense is that if Air Canada ceased to exist, it is a little more complicated than just having someone buy a bunch of new planes and pick up the slack left by AC's departure. Air Canada is by all means a large airline, and the effects of its departure could be profound, especially in places like Vancouver and Toronto where there are an awful lot of international destinations served that simply could not be 'picked up' by other carriers due to the number of flights/routes served. Calgary would remain less affected as the other two, but their hub cities would remain under-serviced for sometime.

Of course starting a new airline is complicated. I never said it was easy, I said that's what would happen. I'm not going to go through every complication on a hockey message board, since a proper business plan for a new airline would be hundreds of pages. Just because something is difficult doesn't mean people won't do it.

[Suave]

I will take a stab at it based on info that I have heard before.

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

I find it odd that a passive unit like an e-reader is not allowed for take-off or landing when I can have a 5 pound hard cover on my lap the whole time.

I think it is just easier to say no electronics during take off and landing then having all the staff versed in the latest gadgets and what is ok or asking everyone if their equipment is passive or not.

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

Also just about everyone has a cell phone in their pocket and I am sure that a few of them forget to turn them off.

Mainly a issue of safety, a couple of cell phones might not make a difference but a whole plane of people using their cells could interfere with the airplanes communication (however minuscule the chance).

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

The last one is headphones. Why are ear buds allowed but noise canceling headphones are not? Why is it safe if the headphones are plugged into their entertainment system but not if the cord runs into your pocket?

Biggest chance of issues in a plane is during takeoff and landing. If you are plugged into your own system you wont hear the emergency notification but you would through the airplanes entertainment.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Suave

Biggest chance of issues in a plane is during takeoff and landing. If you are plugged into your own system you wont hear the emergency notification but you would through the airplanes entertainment.

And to expand on why earbuds are allowed but headphones aren't- in an emergency the headphones can easily become a projectile. If somebody gets bonked in the head with earbuds it likely isn't going to hurt as bad as getting bonked by headphones.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by ken0042

And to expand on why earbuds are allowed but headphones aren't- in an emergency the headphones can easily become a projectile. If somebody gets bonked in the head with earbuds it likely isn't going to hurt as bad as getting bonked by headphones.

I thought about that, but people bring some ridiculous books on a plane that are acceptable during take off and landing.

[ken0042]

What you are saying probably makes sense. However how many people have headphones on a plane; vs how many bring a large book? Also consider that people are typically holding a book; which would make it less likely to fly away should the ride get bumpy.

[Starfishy]

Originally Posted by DementedReality

i fly quite a bit and prefer AC to Westjet to be frank.

1) WJ thinks their poop doesnt stink and quite frankly they are just like any other crappy airline
2) with AC, i get status miles, which i can use to upgrade to business class, access their lounge and other perks
3) the inflight entertainment system is miles better than Westjet. on demand, no charge movies and tv shows.
4) further to point 3 ... right in the middle of watching a TV show, the pilot will come and blabber on about how he appreciated we chose westjet, blah, blah, blah. then the flight attendant will want to play amateur comedian and tell stupid jokes that any one who has flown on WJ more than twice has already heard. haha, groan. meanwhile, you missed the end of a show.
5) if not as in point 4, they lose TV signal and you cant see yur show.
6) AC seats are wider and more comfortable

Now I do agree AC flight attendants are battle axes and treat the cattle class like 2nd class citizens. BUt frankly, I have flown on many many airlines and AC ranks pretty darn high for inflight experiance. Of course they have had challenges and they have some pretty rude and out of touch people working for them, but I do feel westjet isnt too far behind in the arrogance department, they really are losing touch with what made them who they are.

i also hate that everytime i am overseas, AC is going on strike. i am flying home for Thailand tomorrow via Hong Kong with AC. are they going to strand me in HKG?

I fly both carriers alot. I am an AC elite member. I am always amazed when I hear about people complaining about in flight entertainment on WS. I find it far superior. I generally fly for 2 hr flights and I really appreciate being able to continue the hockey game that I was watching at the boarding gate. I watch sports, I don't really care if the audio switches to the attendant, who unlike on AC is actually in a good mood.

The fact that you complain about the comedy routine on WS makes me question whether you actually fly AC. There is no way anyone would choose a tired old bag that hasn't smiled in 3 days over a person having fun and trying to get a couple laughs.

I will continue to fly both airlines through work depending on destination, but anyone who says AC is better than WS for domestic flights does not fly AC enough.

[Notorious Honey Badger]

I see westjets advertising is working very well. Full disclosure I love westjet, but I also love flying air canada. You want bad customer service? Try flying American Airlines. Or US Airway. Air Canada has had very friendly, and, very unfriendly flight attendants. Same with Westjet. I just think people tend to think the rude ones on WJ are the exception and on AC they're the rule based on a very successful advertising campaign. We should be very proud of Canadian carriers vs the world frankly.

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

This seems like the right place for the question.
Does anyone know who makes the rules regarding electronics on a plane and what the justification is? I find it odd that a passive unit like an e-reader is not allowed for take-off or landing when I can have a 5 pound hard cover on my lap the whole time. Also just about everyone has a cell phone in their pocket and I am sure that a few of them forget to turn them off. The last one is headphones. Why are ear buds allowed but noise canceling headphones are not? Why is it safe if the headphones are plugged into their entertainment system but not if the cord runs into your pocket?
These rules seem so random and they are randomly enforced/applied by different carriers.

The issue is that theoretically electronic devices can cause interference with some of our equipment, which is particularly critical on approach. Realistically, I have never actually heard of any issues with something that doesn't have the ability to transmit signals. There have been occasional issues with things that do transmit (computers/cell phones/e-readers), and that is with most people turning them off. If everyone had them on all the time, there would be more issues. It is rare, but it can and has caused fluctuations and interference with signals (primarily ILS-instrument landing system). I can assure you that up front, we do turn our phones off for that reason.

It is all what Transport Canada decides, we only follow the rules they set out. And yes there is variance between airlines, just as there is variance with some airlines following other rules more closely or not (maintenance, pilot training, etc).

WestJet can leave the TV's on now right through landing (that changed a while back) due to significant and costly testing that ensured to Transports satisfaction that it did not cause any interference to the airplane during approach. Which leads into the headphone questions----you can have headphones plugged into the TV system but not an ipod, because your ipod (and any other electronic device) is supposed to be off.

The reason for the earbuds OK vs headband not OK, is actually because of the risk of the headband getting caught around your neck, and either impeding your movement in an evacuation, or strangling you. Personally, if I have to jump out of the airplane, I can't imagine a $3 set of headphones stopping me, but I suppose if someone had a more expensive, bigger set with higher gauge cable, it could be an issue. Obviously with earbuds it is not an issue.

Another odd one (again, transport rule) is that during takeoff and landing you can't have something in your lap, like a book or newspaper. But you are allowed to read. So if it just sitting there, it is an object you should stow, but if you pick it up and read it, that's OK.

One last thing, it took quite a lot of testing of cell phones on during taxi to get Transport to allow cell phones to be turned on after landing on the way to the gate. And as you can imagine, running an airplane around just on the ground for a number of hours gets very expensive.