U.S. Army Sergeant goes on a 16 person killing spree

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

The justice may not be fair from our perspective, but it would probably be the best at satisfying the Afghani people.

Do you truly believe that it would satisfy the Afghan people? I don't at all.

97QGnHfyLuIWhy does he escape facing the laws of the land just because he's in the military? He wasn't following any kind of military directive, and he killed civilians.[/quote]

But he's not going to escape justice. He's going to face the courts for both of the above. No matter what the verdict they're not going to be satisfied.



97QGnHfyLuIThe US should pull out of the middle east, and keep their nose out of there. That they have their nose in there at all is a cause of a lot of the tensions. The US think they are the protectors/police of the world, and it rubs many the wrong way, especially to some counties in the middle east.[/QUOTE]

I've agreed with this for a while, they would have to continue to support Israel since Israel is their only stable Ally in that area though. But I would like to see the Yanks not buy oil or products from the middle east, not give any foreign aid to the middle east, and when disaster strikes they send a nice fuit basket with a card stating sorry about your luck, but call the Russians or Chinese.

But then they would be hated for that reason.

Frankly the American's can't win.

I would also encourage the American's to do the same thing with Pakistan for example.

They need to fall back on the Regeanesque, if your our friends you will find no better friend, if your our enemy you will find no worse enemy.

But if these nations think its bad dealing with the American's wait until they get a load of the Chinese and Russians.

[HELPNEEDED]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Sorry, but I feel absolutely zero sympathy for the Afghans. A lot of sympathy for the soldier. No doubt that is warped, but honest.

Well then your a cruel and ignorant person, congratulatioins!

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I suppose the movie, "Platoon" and events like the "May Lay Massacre" in Viet Nam, show the depth to which troops can lose their humanity. However, even in those situations, it was more than one involved, which may have given it more of an "order by a superior officer" or "group mentality" involvement. My first thought, with an individual incident like this, is that the sargeant just "cracked" and went crazy in a psychopathic frenzy.

I guess.

But then this type of psychopathic behaviour has been happening over and over in Afghanistan. Remember the soldiers that formed a kill team to shoot civilians for sport?

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

Well then your a cruel and ignorant person, congratulatioins!

Shrug. Proper spelling would have made your message more powerful...

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Do you truly believe that it would satisfy the Afghan people? I don't at all.

Satisfy them? No, certainly not all. But, as I said, likely it would be the option that most satisfies them.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

The US should pull out of the middle east, and keep their nose out of there. That they have their nose in there at all is a cause of a lot of the tensions. The US think they are the protectors/police of the world, and it rubs many the wrong way, especially to some counties in the middle east.

I think there much more justification for going into Afganistan because of 9/11, than there was for Iraq.

How much better do you think this world would be if the US completely withdrew from all areas of tension in the Middle East. They are the only country who have enough power to try and maintain some semblance of order in that area of the world. Without it, I believe the powder keg would blow a lot sooner...and just maybe with faith, hope and charity, and the avoidance of cynicism, we may just prevent the blowup from occurring.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Sorry, but I feel absolutely zero sympathy for the Afghans. A lot of sympathy for the soldier. No doubt that is warped, but honest.

A country that has battled oppression throughout it's history, and fought off the biggest world power at the time in order to maintain independence, yeah they are the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by puckluck

Nobody said the Afghan justice system is perfect or even ok, but he broke Afghan laws did he not? And those other scenarios, yes I would agree that their punishment would be ok because you should always know the laws before you enter a country. Ignorance shouldn't be an excuse no matter how backwards the laws are. Don't like the laws, don't enter the country.

This isn't a tourist, he's a U.S. soldier on a mission for his boss, the Army. He will have to go through their system and the Army could, but won't release him to the afgans for justice. If this happened in the States he'd be courtmarshalled and sentenced, then released to the civilian courts, but there is no way they will give him to the afgan's. Nor should they. I don't condone the act and have no clue what sent this guy off the reservation but I have friends on the ground over there and it is a messed up world and it messes with your head. They don't know who is the enemy and someone is trying to kill you everyday. This guy was on his third tour, which in itself is ridiculous. He needs a hospital and treatment before any 'justice' can be served.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I think there much more justification for going into Afganistan because of 9/11, than there was for Iraq.

How much better do you think this world would be if the US completely withdrew from all areas of tension in the Middle East. They are the only country who have enough power to try and maintain some semblance of order in that area of the world. Without it, I believe the powder keg would blow a lot sooner...and just maybe with faith, hope and charity, and the avoidance of cynicism, we may just prevent the blowup from occurring.

Interesting, you've defined the ultimate in catch .22's there. The American's are the only ones who can maintain some semblance or order in the middle east, but by doing that, it makes the situation worse and puts the American's in greater jeopardy.

It would be really interesting if America could remove its reliance on Oil from that part of the world and just let the Chinese step in there.

Those countries would probably be screaming for America's return inside of a year.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Flacker

A country that has battled oppression throughout it's history, and fought off the biggest world power at the time in order to maintain independence, yeah they are the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked.

The country is a by-word for oppression. Let's cut out the politically correct speech. It's one of (if not the) the most savage countries on earth, where all "invaders" are hated, be they "communists", "democrats" or "colonials". The Americans should have known better than to try "nation building". Should have gone in, killed whoever needed killing and pulled out. Throw in the occasional air strike or special forces operation. Along the lines of what CC said...

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Interesting, you've defined the ultimate in catch .22's there. The American's are the only ones who can maintain some semblance or order in the middle east, but by doing that, it makes the situation worse and puts the American's in greater jeopardy.

I'd argue the the US presence there does more to worsen the situation than it does to lessen it.

Stop supporting Israel, and get out of the area completely.

[HELPNEEDED]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

The country is a by-word for oppression. Let's cut out the politically correct speech. It's one of (if not the) the most savage countries on earth, where all "invaders" are hated, be they "communists", "democrats" or "colonials". The Americans should have known better than to try "nation building". Should have gone in, killed whoever needed killing and pulled out. Throw in the occasional air strike or special forces operation. Along the lines of what CC said...

Right, so your definition of "right" is the only definition?

I really don't understand why the Afghanis should bend over and take it up the behind if someone invades their country.

[Mod edit- not needed.]

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

Right, so your definition of "right" is the only definition?

I really don't understand why the Afghanis should bend over and take it up the behind if someone invades their country.

They shouldn't, but we shouldn't be trying to "help" them either. I didn't see any definition of "right" in my post, so not sure what you are talking about.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I'd argue the the US presence there does more to worsen the situation than it does to lessen it.

Stop supporting Israel, and get out of the area completely.

Why should they stop supporting Israel who is an ally, represents one of the only democratic countries in the region and who without America's help would probably still be under attack. They can't screw over Isreal based on some political theory that maybe the other nations will like America better if America feeds Isreal to the Lions.

I would put a rider on it, if all of the middle eastern nations and all of the petty ante terrorist groups including Hezbollah and Hamas stood up and affirmed Isreal's rights to exist as a country then you could back down on some support.

Oh and the national declaration would have to include Iran.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't have enough faith in humanity to ever see the different societies reach common ground.

...

In my heart of hearts, I don't believe that there will ever be peace between the West and the Middle East, and at some point that powder keg will blow.

The worst act of terrorism in history, followed by more than a decade of war, 7700+ Coalition and NATO military casualties, a bare minimum of 122 926 civillian casualties (and quite possibly more than 10x higher) isn't the powder keg blowing?

If I felt that way I don't think I could get up in the morning. I think the only real difference between the average Canadian and the average Afghani or other Middle Easterner is relative prosperity.

All wars are economic, religion is just window-dressing. If the economies of the Middle-East can be developed in such a way as to produce a functioning middle-class, I am certain common ground will be reached, and relatively easily.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Stop supporting Israel, and get out of the area completely.

Awful, terrible, no-good, very bad idea. Israel represents a potential example of sanity and prosperity in the region. The route to a stable middle east has to include the Islamic nations recognizing the right of Israel to exist as well as those muslims who live within the borders of Israel recognizing that same right.

It also requires Israel to provide equal opportunity to the Muslims living within its borders, obviously, and most likely the recognition of a Palestinian state, but those goals can't be reached without the 'big stick' of NATO backing up Israel.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by driveway

The worst act of terrorism in history, followed by more than a decade of war, 7700+ Coalition and NATO military casualties, a bare minimum of 122 926 civillian casualties (and quite possibly more than 10x higher) isn't the powder keg blowing?

Nope you have a lot of things blowing on an internal scale, you have very little blowing on an international scale, and that will come.

Originally Posted by driveway

If I felt that way I don't think I could get up in the morning. I think the only real difference between the average Canadian and the average Afghani or other Middle Easterner is relative prosperity.

I think it goes far beyond relative prosperity, I think it goes to the relative evolution of the society in question. A lot of the very wealtly in the middle east for example are at the heart of the extremist movement. They've installed a incredibly different value system based on tribal or feudal lines.

Originally Posted by driveway

All wars are economic, religion is just window-dressing. If the economies of the Middle-East can be developed in such a way as to produce a functioning middle-class, I am certain common ground will be reached, and relatively easily.

No all wars at heart are about power, either in terms of gaining or maintaining that power. The economic benefits of war are a side step, religion is a reason.

But wars are about asserting your will over someone else, and gaining power over them.

[Canuck-Hater]

Jesus bring the troops home already!!!

[valo403]

Originally Posted by speede5

This isn't a tourist, he's a U.S. soldier on a mission for his boss, the Army. He will have to go through their system and the Army could, but won't release him to the afgans for justice. If this happened in the States he'd be courtmarshalled and sentenced, then released to the civilian courts, but there is no way they will give him to the afgan's. Nor should they. I don't condone the act and have no clue what sent this guy off the reservation but I have friends on the ground over there and it is a messed up world and it messes with your head. They don't know who is the enemy and someone is trying to kill you everyday. This guy was on his third tour, which in itself is ridiculous. He needs a hospital and treatment before any 'justice' can be served.

Apparently it was his fourth tour and he had already been diagnosed with brain trauma injuries. He was also going through marital difficulties back home.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Sorry, but I feel absolutely zero sympathy for the Afghans. A lot of sympathy for the soldier. No doubt that is warped, but honest.

They're not "the Afghans." They're 16 people that have had their lives irrevocably changed. They aren't soldiers or insurgents or government agents, they're regular people. To not feel any sort of sympathy for regular people struck with tragedy like this is just a symptom of the desensitization we in the West seem to have when people "over there" die in droves.