Justin Trudeau dosen't help the Liberal cause

[CaptainCrunch]

Just to move it back to Trudeau in a followup interview yesterday

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stor...vereignty.html

In an interview with Evan Solomon, host of CBC's Power & Politics, Trudeau said he didn't make a mistake by raising the issue of an independent Quebec.
"I did not because, first of all, the separatist option is not the bogeyman it used to be. You ask me what the bogeyman is? It’s the one sitting in our prime minister’s chair right now," Trudeau said Tuesday.
"It’s not going to happen. Modern Quebec is moving in ways where Quebecers are much more anchored toward the world, they’re confident in their abilities, in our abilities, to compete on the world stage. I don’t see it as the big threat, the big scary threat that it used to be."
Trudeau said he used provocative language in an attempt to alert people about Conservative policies to which he's opposed.
Speaking just after question period Tuesday, Trudeau said he loves Canada, and lives and breathes it. He said Canada needs Quebec to balance out Harper's vision.
"I’m not going to stand here and somehow defend that I actually do love Canada because we know that I do love Canada."
Interim Liberal Leader Bob Rae says Trudeau is a great Canadian and a strong believer in a united Canada.

Again to the highllighted bits, he seems to ignore that they're not policies of the government in place.

At some point is Rae going to have to step in and shut Trudeau down?

Clearly Trudeau's kid and the heir apparent is not being misquoted.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Yeah, Pierre Trudeau was an idiot. That whole combating separatism thing, repatriating the Constitution. God forbid someone have a vision of a strong centralized government to combat the petty regionalism that has divided this country pretty much since Confederation.

Pinko! The only thing Trudeau ever did over the span of his entire political career was enact the NEP.

Regards,
Alberta voters

[MarchHare]

In Canada, instead of moving out of the country, Trudeau is going to take the country with him when he goes.

Do I have that option in Alberta if something is bugging me?

Make of this wikipedia (consider the source) article what you will...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_separatism

...the notion of Alberta secession from Canada has gained sympathy from some figures within Alberta's conservative parties. Even after the federal Tories won the 2006 general election, a prominent Alberta Progressive Conservative and a candidate for the Tory leadership also refused to reject secession under all circumstances. Mark Norris, one of the contenders to succeed Ralph Klein as the Alberta premier, told the Calgary Sun in March 2006 that under his leadership, if a future federal government persisted in bringing in policies harmful to Alberta such as a carbon tax, "(Alberta is) going to take steps to secede."

Also, some politicians and at least one poll have indicated that a much larger percentage of the Alberta population may be at least sympathetic to the notion of secession than would be indicated by election results. In January 2004, Premier Ralph Klein told the Canadian edition of Readers Digest that one in four Albertans were in support of separation. An August 2005 poll commissioned by the Western Standard pegged support for the idea that "Western Canadians should begin to explore the idea of forming their own country." at 42% in Alberta and 35.6% across the four Western provinces.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Make of this wikipedia (consider the source) article what you will...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_separatism

There is a difference between support of a notion and actively pursuing it. The issue with Trudeau's comments is more due to the active separatist movement in Quebec. Considering it has subsided somewhat, his comments unnecessarily add fuel to the fire.

And how is it possible with such high support for the notion of separation of Alberta is there not a higher profile equivalent of the PQ / BQ out here? Because for Alberta, I think it is considered a last ditch / save ourselves alternative to locally-disastrous economic policies enacted at the federal level (see NEP and the fool-me-once adage.) In Quebec, it is because they think they're special (and they are...their laws force them to be.... real modern thinking, Justin!)

[CaptainCrunch]

The one big difference to me is that the whole Alberta Seperation thing was born out of a lot of emotion and anger.

It never jumped to a provincial strategy to continually black mail the rest of the country.

It did in Quebec.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

So, in 2004, when GW Bush II was re-elected, lots of Americans said they were going to "separate" from America and move to Canada as America no longer represented their values.

In Canada, instead of moving out of the country, Trudeau is going to take the country with him when he goes.

Do I have that option in Alberta if something is bugging me?

Seems pretty immature and short-sighted. Governments come and governments go.

The Sovereignty Movement seemed to die pretty hard with 9/11 and the scary world it revealed. I'd seriously wonder if that dog still hunts anymore.

In any event, even mentioning a mostly dead topic and breathing some new life into it doesn't say good things about Trudeau's judgement.

Cowperson

Trudeau wouldn't be taking the country with him, he'd moving into alignment with a cause that is long established and has, in its mind, more reasons than simply the government du jour.

Governments come and governments go, but (a) the cultural issues that underlie the feelings of many separatists are permanent (or the desire to separate is out of a fear that the differences are disappearing due to integration), and (b) the type of shift in policy he's referring to would take a sea change in mainstream cultural values of Canadians, not just a change of government, which is why Harper hasn't made those changes despite his personal views and those of many in his party.

For Trudeau, seeing the country, not necessarily just the government, move away from his values might be enough, together with those other cultural factors, for him to finally support separation.

I'm not saying I agree with it without reservation, as I think there's more than enough room within a country for even large cultural differences so long as one strain isn't repressed. And I certainly don't think it was the smartest move politically; I don't think the comment itself is that bad, but it's obviously ripe for misinterpretation and/or spinning.

[seattleflamer]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

i don't agree with Harper's personal stance on a lot of things, but i highly respect that he will not try to force his views on anyone and accepts that Canadians have more liberal views on many issues. he's held a majority government for several months now, but i have yet to see any of the "hidden agenda" stuff pop up like the NDP and Liberals railed on about. in fact the only policy of his i staunchly disagree with is his US-style war on drugs stance, but for all the other good he's managed to do as PM i can forgive that

Really? Just one example is Kyoto. Maybe the Tories ran on it but withdrawing from the Kyoto Protocol despite having a plurality of Canadians support a ratified treaty and a minority Tory gov't for 4/5 years supposedly in favor of some form of emmision control seems to fly in the face of what you say.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Yeah, Pierre Trudeau was an idiot. That whole combating separatism thing, repatriating the Constitution. God forbid someone have a vision of a strong centralized government to combat the petty regionalism that has divided this country pretty much since Confederation.

And yet, Trudeau Sr. is one of the biggest reasons why Canada is so regionally divided. He was a dictator who expected the provinces to kowtow to his dream of Central Canadian dominance. The end result was a nation even further divided when he left office than when he entered.

Also, and ironically given the Liberal attack ads of the past, Trudeau is the PM who put soldiers with guns on our streets.

Pierre Trudeau was an idiot. He was a charismatic idiot, however, which is why he was PM as long as he was. Fortunately, Justin Trudeau seems a bigger idiot, which should hopefully neutralize whatever charisma he has.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Again to the highllighted bits, he seems to ignore that they're not policies of the government in place.

At some point is Rae going to have to step in and shut Trudeau down?

Clearly Trudeau's kid and the heir apparent is not being misquoted.

They may not be official policies of the government (i.e. Big C Conservatives), but they are the policies of many of the people in the government and those that support it, and would likely become the policies of the government if Harper et. al believed they could forward them and stay in power.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by seattleflamer

Really? Just one example is Kyoto. Maybe the Tories ran on it but withdrawing from the Kyoto Protocol despite having a plurality of Canadians support a ratified treaty and a minority Tory gov't for 4/5 years supposedly in favor of some form of emmision control seems to fly in the face of what you say.

You are confusing personal views of Harper with party views of the Conservatives. Abandoning the Kyoto wealth redistribution treaty was always a plank of the Tory platform. Canadians voted them in knowing that was one of the outcomes of electing a Conservative government.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Mike F

They may not be official policies of the government (i.e. Big C Conservatives), but they are the policies of many of the people in the government and those that support it, and would likely become the policies of the government if Harper et. al believed they could forward them and stay in power.

But they're not policies, the current sitting prime minister in a majority government has stated more then once that these issues will not be re-opened.

The only way that that's going to change is if Harper dies in office, or resigns and then those issues would be decided in a public election.

The policy of the government is what has been stated, they're dead issues.

I get that Trudeau wants to whip up the fear factor, there's nothing else to fight on right now that would make a voter impact.

[V]

I can't believe he outright called Harper the boogeyman. I thought they always alluded to it without going all out crazy.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Yeah, Pierre Trudeau was an idiot. That whole combating separatism thing, repatriating the Constitution. God forbid someone have a vision of a strong centralized government to combat the petty regionalism that has divided this country pretty much since Confederation.

Combating separtatism - Trudeau did more to divide the country than he ever did to bring it together.

Repatriating the Constitution - wow... what a can of worms there..

Strong centralized government - translation : Limit the power of provinces to do whats best for THEIR people... whats good for Ottawa is good for everyone.... ie NEP



and my final pet peeve about PET... - MULTICULTURALISM ... A failed policy, which has caused more problems, and implimented by PET and is now almost impossible to get rid of.... kind of like the Senate

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Combating separtatism - Trudeau did more to divide the country than he ever did to bring it together.

Repatriating the Constitution - wow... what a can of worms there..

Strong centralized government - translation : Limit the power of provinces to do whats best for THEIR people... whats good for Ottawa is good for everyone.... ie NEP



and my final pet peeve about PET... - MULTICULTURALISM ... A failed policy, which has caused more problems, and implimented by PET and is now almost impossible to get rid of.... kind of like the Senate

I would agree with what your saying Rerun

I don't think that Trudeau was all that effective at battling Quebec seperation, it seemed to rise to dramatic levels during his time in power and its not like it was an overwhelming win during the referendum.

I will give credit, gaining control of the Constitution was a good move for Canada, but it doesn't negate the rest of Trudeau's time in power.

The centralized government lead to more problems then it was worth and has lead to the regional problems that we have today. The NEP was more of a petty revenge move by Trudeau and created a East West war that is still being fought today.

I agree on Multiculturalism, not that Multiculturalism is a bad thing, it was just built and executed in a stupid and costly way.

Trudeau was a finacial disaster as a Prime Minister, it took years of successive governments to get the spending example that he set under control.

Personally I thought that his intellect was overshadowed by his arrogance, his drive to buddy up to some of the worst human rights offenders on the planet was disgusting and his foreign policy was an absolute joke.

I thought that instead of a extravagant state funeral for him they really should have tossed him off of a cliff into the ocean.

While I don't believe that he was as corrupt as his apprentice Cretien, I think that in terms of leading a country he did more to fracture it then heal it.

He created a atmosphere of mistrust for the Liberal's that continue to this day, though Chretien and to an extent Martin didn't help things at all.

[Yeah_Baby]

Oh Alberta, where the Country on your passport doesn't matter but the license plate on your car does.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Oh Alberta, where the Country on your passport doesn't matter but the license plate on your car does.

You can't be serious

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Oh Alberta, where the Country on your passport doesn't matter but the license plate on your car does.

Canada will always be first in the hearts of Albertans. Unfortunately, with Liberal politicians, Canada = Ottawa + Toronto + Quebec

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

You can't be serious

I'm being somewhat facetious.

Originally Posted by Rerun

Canada will always be first in the hearts of Albertans. Unfortunately, with Liberal politicians, Canada = Ottawa + Toronto + Quebec

And that is a total political construct that continues to get play in Alberta 30 years later. 'The West wants in" West meaning Alberta, and Alberta meaning Calgary and specifically it's Energy interests.

You made the point that the provinces know what is best for THEIR people. Are we not all Canadian? What does that even mean? Apparently not a lot if the Provincial Governments are the be all end all.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

I'm being somewhat facetious.



And that is a total political construct that continues to get play in Alberta 30 years later. 'The West wants in" West meaning Alberta, and Alberta meaning Calgary and specifically it's Energy interests.

You made the point that the provinces know what is best for THEIR people. Are we not all Canadian? What does that even mean? Apparently not a lot if the Provincial Governments are the be all end all.

You have to admit that the Liberal's have certainly not helped their cause out here.

Trudeau hated Alberta and part of the NEP was punative

Chretien basically stated that he hated dealing with Albertan's and stated that he didn't understand us, he never tried to bridge that gap. He was also punative in punishing Calgary when he shut down CFB Calgary and moved it to Edmonton to support Anne McClellon (sp?) because he decided that Calgarian's wouldn't vote for him. He made little to no effort to campaign here.

Martin made flowery rhetoric about getting Alberta to the table, but his idea of campaigning here was a fuel stop on the way to B.C.

Even Dion made sure that his policies (Environmental) specifically were designed to go after Alberta while leaving Ontario's manufacturing section alone.

The Liberal's have made next to no effort to heal the wounds caused by PET in his heyday, its not like Albertan's are going to trust them on faith.

The Liberal's have done nothing to include Alberta when they were in power, less when they were campaigning and its no wonder that there's a serious mistrust.

Blame the Liberal's don't blame us.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by seattleflamer

Really? Just one example is Kyoto. Maybe the Tories ran on it but withdrawing from the Kyoto Protocol despite having a plurality of Canadians support a ratified treaty and a minority Tory gov't for 4/5 years supposedly in favor of some form of emmision control seems to fly in the face of what you say.

Kyoto is a stupid agreement that nobody was going to obey anyways.

There was no point in staying part of it. Harper pulled out because of that, and because it is ridiculous that a lot of European countries are targeting our oil sands as a source of bad emissions, while ignoring what countries like India and China do.