What to do about Greece

[macker]

Of the 126 countries with rated debt, Greece ranks 126th and the least likely on the planet to repay their debts. Unemployment is the highest on record. Meanwhile in Germany unemployment has fallen to 20 year lows. Greece has one hope.....Germany.....

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by macker

Of the 126 countries with rated debt, Greece ranks 126th and the least likely on the planet to repay their debts. Unemployment is the highest on record. Meanwhile in Germany unemployment has fallen to 20 year lows. Greece has one hope.....Germany.....

The smarter move for Germany would be to find a way to firewall their economy, become a participant in the EU instead of a member.

Right now Greece and the other nations are a parasite, they'll suck on Germany like a Vampire until Germany joins them in the cellar.

Its time for the EU to start expelling the poor sisters who believe that no matter how bad things are they'll get bailed out.

Let Greece basically go under, it will force them to do a proper restructuring and to tell the special interest groups there to FOAD

[Knut]

Agreed.

Dissolve the EU and then rebuild it using only the strongest 10 nations. Let the rest of the areas create their own "Economic zones"

[chemgear]

Even more angst as Greece tries to get some more money to keep afloat for a little while longer. Ironically, all this is just to stay afloat until the next debt payment is due - it doesn't even begin to address the problems or actually solve anything. The austerity (and the debt they piled up for so many years) is pushing their economy into a death spiral.


http://business.financialpost.com/20...nst-austerity/

http://business.financialpost.com/20...imf-officials/

Greece’s largest police union has threatened to issue arrest warrants for officials from the country’s European Union and International Monetary Fund lenders for demanding deeply unpopular austerity measures.

In a letter obtained by Reuters Friday, the Federation of Greek Police accused the officials of “…blackmail, covertly abolishing or eroding democracy and national sovereignty” and said one target of its warrants would be the IMF’s top official for Greece, Poul Thomsen.

[Knut]

The EU needs to find a way to just cut them loose. It would be a message to other lazy countries in the region as well.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Hesla

Agreed.

Dissolve the EU and then rebuild it using only the strongest 10 nations. Let the rest of the areas create their own "Economic zones"

If it only has the 10 most wealthy nations, then who is going to be the mobile cheap labour?

All those Greeks living in Germany right now aren't there for the weather.

[Knut]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

If it only has the 10 most wealthy nations, then who is going to be the mobile cheap labour?

I am sure that all the East Indians that work in Dubai and Abu Dhabi could be enticed with slightly better conditions and less of a chance of imprisonment and death.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Hesla

I am sure that all the East Indians that work in Dubai and Abu Dhabi could be enticed with slightly better conditions and less of a chance of imprisonment and death.

Northern Europeans barely tolerate WOGs from Italy - I doubt they would be overly welcoming to a horde of brown people.

[Knut]

^ Should have been green- text.

No way they leave Dubai/Abu Dhabi as they are not allowed.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Hesla

^ Should have been green- text.

No way they leave Dubai/Abu Dhabi as they are not allowed.

Don't worry - my response wasn't unduly serious either...

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Hesla

The EU needs to find a way to just cut them loose. It would be a message to other lazy countries in the region as well.

Not a few observors have noted that leaving the EU would be a way for Greece to float the Drachma at a level that would be easier to stomach economically . . . . . but the long term picture outside of the EU would be less palatable.

What you seem to be seeing is that all nations within the EU need to emulate the highest denominator, Germany, or there is pain to pay.

Unfortunately, Greeks don't like paying taxes, don't like collecting taxes and like to get lots of free stuff from their governments which collects no taxes.

Rock, meet hard place.

Global markets are simply looking for an orderly, negotiated transition. Every time it starts looking disorderly, things sell off a bit and monetary authorities start thinking "contagion" with sweat on their brow.

Greece by itself is a nothing country and nothing countries like Greece have gone bankrupt in the past. Its the other countries like Italy and Spain that are too big to fail and markets worry about where a Greek failure might lead. They'd rather it just stopped at Greece and that it was taken care of in an orderly fashion, with creditors negotiating a reasonable settlement and getting some pennies on their dollars.

Eventually, time will heal this.

Cowperson

[ranchlandsselling]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Not a few observors have noted that leaving the EU would be a way for Greece to float the Drachma at a level that would be easier to stomach economically . . . . . but the long term picture outside of the EU would be less palatable.

What you seem to be seeing is that all nations within the EU need to emulate the highest denominator, Germany, or there is pain to pay.

Unfortunately, Greeks don't like paying taxes, don't like collecting taxes and like to get lots of free stuff from their governments which collects no taxes.

Rock, meet hard place.

Global markets are simply looking for an orderly, negotiated transition. Every time it starts looking disorderly, things sell off a bit and monetary authorities start thinking "contagion" with sweat on their brow.

Greece by itself is a nothing country and nothing countries like Greece have gone bankrupt in the past. Its the other countries like Italy and Spain that are too big to fail and markets worry about where a Greek failure might lead. They'd rather it just stopped at Greece and that it was taken care of in an orderly fashion, with creditors negotiating a reasonable settlement and getting some pennies on their dollars.

Eventually, time will heal this.

Cowperson

Stupid time. . . . Hurry up!

[Tinordi]

Private bond holders need to be willing to take a haircut, Germany needs to be more like Europe not Europe being more like them.

I'm going to cash out my equities.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by chemgear

Even more angst as Greece tries to get some more money to keep afloat for a little while longer. Ironically, all this is just to stay afloat until the next debt payment is due - it doesn't even begin to address the problems or actually solve anything. The austerity (and the debt they piled up for so many years) is pushing their economy into a death spiral.


http://business.financialpost.com/20...nst-austerity/

http://business.financialpost.com/20...imf-officials/

Greece’s largest police union has threatened to issue arrest warrants for officials from the country’s European Union and International Monetary Fund lenders for demanding deeply unpopular austerity measures.

In a letter obtained by Reuters Friday, the Federation of Greek Police accused the officials of “…blackmail, covertly abolishing or eroding democracy and national sovereignty” and said one target of its warrants would be the IMF’s top official for Greece, Poul Thomsen.

If you want to preserve your national sovereignty then don't drive your economy into the ground and then expect no strings bailouts.

I think that the only option for the EU is to put a hard deadline on austerity cuts and make it an all or nothing proposition.

Either comply or get absolutely no money to service your payrolls and debts.

The EU not only needs to firewall themselves against this situation, but to turn off the spigot which threatens to drag everyone down.

The EU needs to start by withdrawing their presence due to this threat by the police to arrest them.

Personally I want to wait until the country goes bankrupt and they have a bankruptsy auction so I can buy some stuff for cheap.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

If you want to preserve your national sovereignty then don't drive your economy into the ground and then expect no strings bailouts.

I think that the only option for the EU is to put a hard deadline on austerity cuts and make it an all or nothing proposition.

Either comply or get absolutely no money to service your payrolls and debts.

The EU not only needs to firewall themselves against this situation, but to turn off the spigot which threatens to drag everyone down.

The EU needs to start by withdrawing their presence due to this threat by the police to arrest them.

Personally I want to wait until the country goes bankrupt and they have a bankruptsy auction so I can buy some stuff for cheap.

Thanks but that's basically the last thing the EU should do.

[CaptainCrunch]

I disagree, they can't keep just sending blank checks to Greece without Greece taking steps to reduce that need, via austerity and tax collection.

right now Greece is literally a flaming hobo barrel, the leaders are throwing money into it and then laughing as they sing hobo songs around it.

At some point the Germany's and Frances of the world need to stop throwing money in with little to no return and no guaratnee that Greece is going to right the ship, and after all of this time I think they have to draw a line in the sand.

[CaptainCrunch]

Greece government votes in $4 billion in austerity measures to get $130 billion dollar bailout. Next major problem is a bond repayment at the end of March.

Greece burned to the ground tonight by protestors.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Hesla

The EU needs to find a way to just cut them loose. It would be a message to other lazy countries in the region as well.

I know this is a common year thought, and probably amongst a lot of other Europeans. There is a problem here though. They could be past the point of no return, and there is one particularly glaring issue with this situation.

If they cut Greece out tomorrow then the focus shifts to Portugal and Spain. If you cut them, Italy has to go next and the next would be France. At the point where it becomes obvious that France would leave the union it's basically over. Essentially cutting Greece could mean the entire EU fails; sometimes the unintended consequences of a seemingly simple route are too painful!

Its a catch 22 though. No one wants to keep pouring money into these countries and they're being dragged into austerity (which might not work anyway).

I agree with cowperson that eventually it will get sorted and it just takes time. Until then it could be a bit of a roller-coaster.

[chemgear]

^ Agreed. That is why a lot of analysts are saying things are looking pretty bad. You can't keep telling Greece to cut, cut, cut but still hope their economy will grow to actually pay things back at some point. All those countries have large unemployment - more austerity isn't going to help them grow organically out of debt.

I think Greek elections are in a month or two. I wonder if the government will even survive/any of these cuts get implemented. Even if this bailout happens this time around, it hasn't solved anything. You've just given a small amount of crack to one of the junkies (in a room full of junkies) to last for another month or two. People are already looking to the next round of bailouts.

It is only a matter of time; but perhaps it is only being a matter of time before an exodus happens out of the Euro as it exists now.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Slava

I know this is a common year thought, and probably amongst a lot of other Europeans. There is a problem here though. They could be past the point of no return, and there is one particularly glaring issue with this situation.

If they cut Greece out tomorrow then the focus shifts to Portugal and Spain. If you cut them, Italy has to go next and the next would be France. At the point where it becomes obvious that France would leave the union it's basically over. Essentially cutting Greece could mean the entire EU fails; sometimes the unintended consequences of a seemingly simple route are too painful!

Its a catch 22 though. No one wants to keep pouring money into these countries and they're being dragged into austerity (which might not work anyway).

I agree with cowperson that eventually it will get sorted and it just takes time. Until then it could be a bit of a roller-coaster.

I don't know if you can disagree that because of the way that Greece was doing business that these deep austerity cuts had to happen no matter how unpopular they are.

If you're going to be part of the EU, and you're going to go hat in hand to continually ask for bailouts, there are going to be hefty conditions, and as you ask for more, the conditions are going to get tougher and tougher.

I just don't see how a $4 billion dollar budget cut does anything when your getting $130 billion in bailouts.

I doubt that the government will last through the next election, eventually as the people get more angry you get Nationalist governments that tend to rise very quickly.

With the issues in Italy, and Greece and Spain, are we seeing another incubator for a rise in either communism or Facism?