Not sure if he really said this, and I think it is the point a lot of us who aren't full believers try to make... whether you be agnostic or full atheist.
RE: "I think that what I was getting at is that far too often people are far too dismissive of ancient literature—not just biblical literature—on the basis that it is primitive, "immoral", or somehow irrelevant and meaningless. In actual fact, I'm fairly certain that there is and always will be much to be learned and appreciated in the thoughts and observations of a primitive society. So many things tend to be lost amid our own sense of moral and intellectual superiority."
Not sure if he really said this, and I think it is the point a lot of us who aren't full believers try to make... whether you be agnostic or full atheist.
for fun, since you asked
But back on topic, it isn't an idea that someone came up with, at least from a legitimate source it's an experience that happens and than the person tries to explain it. Some aren't very good at explaining it and others are pretty good at it. Some allow their own prejudices to influence their description, some get brainwashed by religion in trying to describe it and some come from other cultures that make us think they aren't up to our standards and so aren't worth listening too. We can pick apart their message from a number of different angles but that doesn't mean the experience doesn't exist.
It also doesn't mean that the experience is due to stimulus external to the brain, or due to the stimulus they attribute it to.
Otherwise you must accept all anecdotal accounts of people's internal experiences, including astral travel, abduction by aliens, talking with the dead, being reincarnated souls of past lives, god telling them to do something or kill someone, etc.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
Just out of curiousity, do most of the "Christians" have a specific cut-off date after which someone who claimed "god told me..." is simply dismissed as a crazy person rather than having their speeches/writings considered to be "The word of god." If so, when is it?
I've been wondering this since I listened to a dude claim that "god told me the world would end in seven years..." and so forth and so on. Most people on the train were rolling their eyes and smirking while looking away from him so as not to encourage him to speak more. I wondered if he'd have been considered a prophet had the diatribe been spoken 1800 years earlier.
It also doesn't mean that the experience is due to stimulus external to the brain, or due to the stimulus they attribute it to.
Otherwise you must accept all anecdotal accounts of people's internal experiences, including astral travel, abduction by aliens, talking with the dead, being reincarnated souls of past lives, god telling them to do something or kill someone, etc.
Yeah, you have to use some discernment. The way I look at is will it give me peace? The things you mention are just more divergences from what I need.
Just out of curiousity, do most of the "Christians" have a specific cut-off date after which someone who claimed "god told me..." is simply dismissed as a crazy person rather than having their speeches/writings considered to be "The word of god." If so, when is it?
I've been wondering this since I listened to a dude claim that "god told me the world would end in seven years..." and so forth and so on. Most people on the train were rolling their eyes and smirking while looking away from him so as not to encourage him to speak more. I wondered if he'd have been considered a prophet had the diatribe been spoken 1800 years earlier.
not so much a a cutoff date, but you do have to take things with a grain of salt. 2500 years ago if someone started saying they had heard from God, they may have been listened to, I don't know, that is in interesting question. as for today, we can test what someone says against the bible to see if it aligns with what we know of God or what Jesus said. if someone says the earth will end in 7 years, or a specific date, it is met with much skepticism as the bible says we won't know when the end will come, it will come like a thief in the night etc. also some people you just know are crazy by how they act, or if they are seeking something out of it for themselves I would doubt them also (like leaders of cults etc). if they focus on giving them money or something that is a warning sign. but I think some people do legitimately hear from God and can use it to direct a decision, find peace about something, go on a mission trip or challenge thier church etc
__________________
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RE: "I think that what I was getting at is that far too often people are far too dismissive of ancient literature—not just biblical literature—on the basis that it is primitive, "immoral", or somehow irrelevant and meaningless. In actual fact, I'm fairly certain that there is and always will be much to be learned and appreciated in the thoughts and observations of a primitive society. So many things tend to be lost amid our own sense of moral and intellectual superiority."
Well and concisely put...I agree with that!
But we should study a variety of ancient myths - not just our own.
Read myths. They teach you that you can turn inward, and you begin to get the message of the symbols. Read other people's myths, not those of your own religion, because you tend to interpret your own religion in terms of facts -- but if you read the other ones, you begin to get the message. Myth helps you to put your mind in touch with this experience of being alive. Myth tells you what the experience is. -- Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth
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not so much a a cutoff date, but you do have to take things with a grain of salt. 2500 years ago if someone started saying they had heard from God, they may have been listened to, I don't know, that is in interesting question. as for today, we can test what someone says against the bible to see if it aligns with what we know of God or what Jesus said. if someone says the earth will end in 7 years, or a specific date, it is met with much skepticism as the bible says we won't know when the end will come, it will come like a thief in the night etc.
So your test is something like this: you dismiss the statements of a person hearing voices on the train if they do not accord with the statements of a loose collection of people hearing voices ~2000 years ago? But accept them if they do accord?
That doesn't make very much sense to me.
__________________
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You guys are idiots if you think that people in the past believed everyone that claimed to hear the voice of God. It shows how little you know about the past, and human nature.
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So your test is something like this: you dismiss the statements of a person hearing voices on the train if they do not accord with the statements of a loose collection of people hearing voices ~2000 years ago? But accept them if they do accord?
That doesn't make very much sense to me.
not quite. if you don't believe Jesus ever existed then sure. I would first test it against what Jesus said, that is the best one (and a guy saying when the world would end is an example you gave, which Jesus talked about, as I mentioned in my prior post)
as for the rest of the bible, what people said in the old testament is preserved because there is truth or things that can be learned from them (whether they are myths are actual). likely these societies would have dismissed what the prophets said if they were known crazies (like the randoms that show up on transit). and many of the writings in the bible aren't people saying God told them whatever, aside from a few books like Isaiah. some of these books include prophecies regarding things that would happen 600 years later, so I guess they were written or passed down (oral tradition in ancient jewish culture) and when these things actually happened it gave credence to what they said.
today if someone says they heard from God about something, I can't jump forward and see if it came true etc, so if they don't have a history of saying nonsensical things, I guess the only test is the bible. what else would you test what they say against? I would be inclined to believe them if it wasn't something that appeared entirely self-serving (like starting a cult etc)
do you trust people when they tell you something? do you test everything someone says? how do you base whether to trust anyone? I would imagine similar tests (minus the bible likely) would come into play right?
I would be alot more likely to believe someone who I knew was walking with God and not crazy then some random person I didn't know on the bus, whether they were telling me the news, what they heard from God, or the dreams they had the night before.
__________________
GO FLAMES, STAMPEDERS, ROUGHNECKS, CALVARY, DAWGS and SURGE!
You guys are idiots if you think that people in the past believed everyone that claimed to hear the voice of God. It shows how little you know about the past, and human nature.
well thanks! That certainly clears it up for all of us...you damned idiots, you should know better!
Perhaps you could point people to your vast library of knowledge and show us where we speak wrong?
not quite. if you don't believe Jesus ever existed then sure. I would first test it against what Jesus said, that is the best one (and a guy saying when the world would end is an example you gave, which Jesus talked about, as I mentioned in my prior post)
as for the rest of the bible, what people said in the old testament is preserved because there is truth or things that can be learned from them (whether they are myths are actual). likely these societies would have dismissed what the prophets said if they were known crazies (like the randoms that show up on transit). and many of the writings in the bible aren't people saying God told them whatever, aside from a few books like Isaiah. some of these books include prophecies regarding things that would happen 600 years later, so I guess they were written or passed down (oral tradition in ancient jewish culture) and when these things actually happened it gave credence to what they said.
today if someone says they heard from God about something, I can't jump forward and see if it came true etc, so if they don't have a history of saying nonsensical things, I guess the only test is the bible. what else would you test what they say against? I would be inclined to believe them if it wasn't something that appeared entirely self-serving (like starting a cult etc)
do you trust people when they tell you something? do you test everything someone says? how do you base whether to trust anyone? I would imagine similar tests (minus the bible likely) would come into play right?
I would be alot more likely to believe someone who I knew was walking with God and not crazy then some random person I didn't know on the bus, whether they were telling me the news, what they heard from God, or the dreams they had the night before.
so just for clarity's sake...when it comes to "Jesus says, or Jesus said" whose doctrine do we believe? Catholics, Baptists, Mormons, JWs, Mennonite, Greek Catholic, Coptic Orthodox, Eritrean Orthodox, Lutheran, Evangelicals....
it is very confusing about these messages and the conflicting array in which they are presented.
You guys are idiots if you think that people in the past believed everyone that claimed to hear the voice of God. It shows how little you know about the past, and human nature.
So what exactly is the time-honoured test for when to believe someone claiming to hear the voice of God? I must be an idiot because I have no idea.
__________________
"Life of Russian hockey veterans is very hard," said Soviet hockey star Sergei Makarov. "Most of them don't have enough to eat these days. These old players are Russian legends."
not quite. if you don't believe Jesus ever existed then sure. I would first test it against what Jesus said, that is the best one (and a guy saying when the world would end is an example you gave, which Jesus talked about, as I mentioned in my prior post)
as for the rest of the bible, what people said in the old testament is preserved because there is truth or things that can be learned from them (whether they are myths are actual). likely these societies would have dismissed what the prophets said if they were known crazies (like the randoms that show up on transit). and many of the writings in the bible aren't people saying God told them whatever, aside from a few books like Isaiah. some of these books include prophecies regarding things that would happen 600 years later, so I guess they were written or passed down (oral tradition in ancient jewish culture) and when these things actually happened it gave credence to what they said.
today if someone says they heard from God about something, I can't jump forward and see if it came true etc, so if they don't have a history of saying nonsensical things, I guess the only test is the bible. what else would you test what they say against? I would be inclined to believe them if it wasn't something that appeared entirely self-serving (like starting a cult etc)
do you trust people when they tell you something? do you test everything someone says? how do you base whether to trust anyone? I would imagine similar tests (minus the bible likely) would come into play right?
I would be alot more likely to believe someone who I knew was walking with God and not crazy then some random person I didn't know on the bus, whether they were telling me the news, what they heard from God, or the dreams they had the night before.
First test: plausibility. Does what this person is saying accord with my experiences of the way the world works.
Second test: I would adopt this test of yours, paying close attention to the bolded bit:
Quote:
I would be inclined to believe them if it wasn't something that appeared entirely self-serving (like starting a cult etc).
These simple tests have so far lead me to disbelieve every single person who has ever claimed to hear the voice of God.
__________________
"Life of Russian hockey veterans is very hard," said Soviet hockey star Sergei Makarov. "Most of them don't have enough to eat these days. These old players are Russian legends."
So what exactly is the time-honoured test for when to believe someone claiming to hear the voice of God? I must be an idiot because I have no idea.
There isn't one - which is the point. Some arbitrary "cutoff date" for when people went from "being brainwashed idiots to rational smartypants" is just ######ed. You can guarantee that if someone started ranting in the past, people backed away even then. The "loose collection of people hearing voices" wasn't as loose as you make the claim it was. Hearing voices was NOT the litmus test in the past the people on here seem to think it was. Making the claim that it was is moronic.
so just for clarity's sake...when it comes to "Jesus says, or Jesus said" whose doctrine do we believe? Catholics, Baptists, Mormons, JWs, Mennonite, Greek Catholic, Coptic Orthodox, Eritrean Orthodox, Lutheran, Evangelicals....
it is very confusing about these messages and the conflicting array in which they are presented.
believe whoever you want Cheese. I know you want me to pick just one but some of those believe mostly the same things about what Jesus actually said, or have interepreted similar things, and dissimilar things.
baptists, mennonites, evangelicals - the 4 gospels say what Jesus said, and these three groups would have similar interperetations.
the catholics have some different interperetations, and its interesting to note that they started the church, but went the wrong way with some things (like saying if you paid the church xx amount they would get you into heaven...) and thats where others like the lutheran, evangelical, baptists etc stood up and said it was wrong. but they still had the same words of Jesus.
now I don't know much about the orthodox, maybe someone else can answer that, but they have the same words of Jesus.
mormonism was started in the 1700s, 1700 years after Christ based on Gold tablets found in the forest. I'm sorry but after looking into what they believe, I think there are some false beliefs there, i mean thier leader (Joseph Smith) decided a number of years after the experience that God had said he could have multiple wives. hmm, sounds like personal benefit to me.... also thier book includes various quotes from the holy bible. I think what the believe of the bible is what Jesus said, they just have some extra added on centuries later, which I personally don't agree with. JWs have some interesting beliefs and seem to have taken some things to an extreme and have some cultish tendencies.
however, of all the groups you mentioned, I don't know that any of them would disagree with what Jesus said in the old king james bible (although I prefer the NIV myself, easier to read and understand in todays english). it is good to look at the various translations when studying a passage of scripture in case a different word is used. I would test what someone says against the bible before I would go to a pastor of a church.
cheese I am curious if you have looked into each of those sects of Christiandom and your thoughts on each? do you think some are closer than others to what Jesus said? or do you believe Jesus even existed?
__________________
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First test: plausibility. Does what this person is saying accord with my experiences of the way the world works.
Second test: I would adopt this test of yours, paying close attention to the bolded bit:
These simple tests have so far lead me to disbelieve every single person who has ever claimed to hear the voice of God.
fair enough. If someone said to me God told them they should be a missionary, or they should be a pastor, I would tend to believe them. If I use your first test, well I can't because it doesn't apply. the second test we both agree, and I would say they aren't saying it for personal gain (except maybe assuring themselves they are making the right decision, in which case I don't care as it doesn't effect me)
if someone told me God told them I needed to stop doing some sin, or I should make a certain decision, I would use a variation of your first test, "does this fit with what I understand of how the world works or what the bible says, what I believe etc"
then the second test, is this person out for personal gain, well I would certainly be considerate of how it would affect them.
if someone told me God told them the world will end on may 26th, I would rule them out based on my first test, what Jesus said. (for Cheese, the NIV would be my first look). I would be suspicious of what they have to gain, if of course I hadn't already ruled them out as drunk etc.
of course the underlying thing is do I trust this person/how well do I know them.
as knalus mentioned, throughout time people have been suspicious when someone says they heard from God
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I'm not sure if I find it sad or hilarious whenever someone has the capacity of critical thinking to dismiss the Mormon faith as nonsense but can't apply that same standard of logical reasoning to other branches of Christianity (or other faith-based religions, for that matter).
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That certainly clears it up for all of us...you damned idiots, you should know better!
