Will Israel launch unilateral air strikes to destroy Iran's nuclear facilities?

[Nage Waza]

Puckluck, why don't you tell us about it?

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Puckluck, why don't you tell us about it?

What's there to say? My parents were beaten by Israeli soldiers when they invaded Lebanon.

They weren't married at that time, but the whole town was rounded up and beaten and had their homes used as mini-motels while fighting insurgents.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by puckluck

Maybe you'd like to have a seat with my mom, dad, Grandma, and countless other Lebanese immigrants and they can tell you all about their torture stories at the hands of Israel.

This didn't just start a decade ago, but before Hezballah was even created.

Probably around that same time Lebanon declared war on Israel in 1948? Call me unsympathetic.

[T@T]

Hopefully in the not too distant future people will look back and laugh at the pasts sheer stupidity to hate and kill over something called religion.

Wars over greed seem so much "smarter" for some reason.

[freedogger]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

It's not a question of "will" Israel attack Iran, ...it's a question of "when" they attack Iran.

Of course America will go along with it, even if they have to put up some token media resistance to make people think they're reluctant.

The war has already started. You have sanctions and embargoes being imposed on Iran. You have the U.S./Israeli intellegence apparatus bombing missile sites, assassinating Iranian scientists, aiding terror groups inside Iran (MEK, Jundullah), and manipulating their currency/banking system.

War with Iran is inevitable because it is one of the prime targets in the Project for a New American Century, penned by the AIPAC/neocons that run the Pentagon since even before Bush Jr. (Think Perle, Wolfowitz, Cheney)

This war is not about Irans nuclear weapons, ...just like it wasn't about Iraq's WMD's. That is the glamorous cover story. This is about the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, all the big energy/resource deals between Iran, China, and Russia (that are taking business away from all the Western oil giants) This is about limiting/undermining China's geo-political influence in the region.

Nuclear weapons are only a means to enforce/maintain sovereignty, not for offense. Only Uncle Sam has used a nuke for offense.They are a great deterrent.

I don't think the "crazy" Iranian leadership are going to risk total destruction of their country in the form of a nuclear counter-attack just to "get" Israel. I feel if the M.E. wants to head in any meaningful direction, Israel should give up their nukes first, in exchange for Hamas/Hezbollah ceasefire and peace negotiations.

It's also about the petro-dollar.
Ahmadinejad, ....like Hussein and Gaddafi before him, have been negotiating with Russia/China to trade oil with their own national currencies, or a basket of currencies, NOT the American dollar. This would have a devastating effect on the U.S. economy. They need oil supplying nations to buy dollars to trade oil.

I have to hand it to Iran, ...they have been holding back despite being attacked covertly. This kind of dispels the popular notion that Iranian leaders are irrational crazies with a hair trigger.

What I see unfolding will be a Pearl Harbor(provocation) or Gulf of Tonkin(false flag) incident to kick this thing off, that is if they can't convince the world of Irans supposed nuclear weapons threat.

I read posts like this and think there is still hope that people might wake up and clue in to what is really going on. Thanks.

[freedogger]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

Why are some posters saying it's a nuclear war? I haven't seen any mention of Israeli intent to drop nukes. There are plenty of ways to have a war without nukes....this has been happening for the last 60 years.

I guess you haven't heard of depleted uranium. Educate yourself.


A. Miller, et al. "Genomic instability in human osteoblast cells after exposure to depleted Uranium: Delay lethality
and micronuclei formation". Journal of Environmental Radioactivity. vol.64(2-3), 2003 (PP 247-259).

A. Miller, et al, "Effect of the military-relevant heavy metal, depleted uranium and heavy metal tungsten-alloy on
gene expression in human liver carcinoma cells (HepG2)." Mol. Cell Biochem. vol. 255(1-2). Jan. 2004 (PP. 247-56)

Chroder, H. et al. "Chromosome aberration analysis in peripheral lymphocytes of Gulf War and Balkans War
veterans". Radiation Prot. Dosimetry. Vol. 103(3) 2003 (PP. 211-219).

Yaqoub, A., Ajeel, N., and Al-Wiswasy, M., 1998, “Incidence and pattern of malignant diseases (excluding
leukemia) during 1990-1997”, Proceeding of the conference on health and environmental consequences of DU used
by U.S. and British forces in the 1991 Gulf War, Dec. 2-3, 1998, Baghdad, Iraq.
http://www.irak.be/ned/archief/Deple...0INCIDENCE.htm

Al-Sadoon, I., Hassan, J., and Yaqoub, A., 1998, “Incidence and pattern of congenital anomalies among birth in
Basrah during the period 1990-1998”, Proceeding of the conference on health and environmental consequences of
DU used by U.S. and British forces in the 1991 Gulf War, Dec. 2-3, 1998.
http://www.irak.be/ned/archief/Deple...0INCIDENCE.htm

Yaqoub, A., et.al., 1999, “Depleted Uranium and health of people in Basrah: an epidemiological evidence; 1-The
incidence and pattern of malignant diseases among children in Basrah with specific reference to leukemia during the
period of 1990-1998”, the medical journal of Basrah University (MJBU), vol.17, no.1&2, 1999, Basrah, Iraq.

Ammash, H., Alwan, L., and Maarouf, B.,”Genetic hematological study for a selected population from DU
contaminated areas in Basra.” Proceeding of the conference on the effects of the use of DU weapons on human and
environment in Iraq, Baghdad, Iraq 2002.

[valo403]

Nothing makes a point like a bibliography

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

How long have you waited for a thread to bash Israel?

Oh give me a break...

Why didn't you ask me "how long have you waited to bash arabic middle eastern countries?"

It would be just as valid since I basically said they're all willing to murder their own citizens with impunity. Or is it not as hurtful when I accuse the arab states for being careless with human lives?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by T@T

Hopefully in the not too distant future people will look back and laugh at the pasts sheer stupidity to hate and kill over something called religion.

Wars over greed seem so much "smarter" for some reason.

The aims of Hezbollah and Hammas are as much political as they are religion based.

Its easy to sit there and talk about it as a religious war, but outside of the radical minority political parties in Israel I'm curious as to how you see that their actions are based around religion, as oppossed to political and national defense.


This war is as much political or more then it is about who worships how.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Oh give me a break...

Why didn't you ask me "how long have you waited to bash arabic middle eastern countries?"

It would be just as valid since I basically said they're all willing to murder their own citizens with impunity. Or is it not as hurtful when I accuse the arab states for being careless with human lives?

Oh come on, everyone knows that bashing Israel amounts to antisemitism, but bashing Arabs is just speaking the truth.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by puckluck

What's there to say? My parents were beaten by Israeli soldiers when they invaded Lebanon.

They weren't married at that time, but the whole town was rounded up and beaten and had their homes used as mini-motels while fighting insurgents.

Not to sound like an unsympathetic jerk, but did Lebanon attack Israel or was it a militia based in Lebanon that was preparing to attack Israel? What forced Israel to invade, because as I recall they marched to Beirut and then left the country except for a buffer zone, they did not stick around to 'plunder' (they basically took out the major enemy of Israel which also happened to be the major enemy of Lebanon). Also, was there torture, or was there abuse? I really don't know the difference or even if it matters. I just know that Lebanon had either attacked Israel directly or 'allowed' militias to exist within their borders to attack Israel. I also think Syrian soldiers still exist in Southern Lebanon? Keep in mind that Lebanon was 'created' in a similar fashion to Israel with conflict coming from Syria.

If your parents are mad at abuse at the hands of Israeli soldiers, I don't blame them, but do they see what caused the soldiers to be there in the first place? Do people realize there was a civil war in Lebanon with hundreds of thousands of deaths? Yet the general animosity against Israel seems to be far greater than those responsible for basically destroying Lebanon. Israel removed massive PLO armies in their invasion, would Lebanon be better off if the armies still existed?

Lebanon has had it's chance to make peace with Israel, and have had a lot of problems due to aligning with it's neighbors versus joining the 'west'. How has their so called partnership with Iran and Syria done for them? What about Hezbollah? I think if Wikileaks has shown us anything, is that while people criticize Israel, the leaders in Lebanon were negotiating ways for Israel to invade to rid them of Hezbollah (which also means booting out Syria and Iran). This new invasion would be very similar to the invasion you refer to (I think).

Lebanon should be a shining light in the region, and perhaps they still are, but they could have been so much more. I can only imagine what a country they could have been had they made peace with Israel and liberated themselves of Syria. Many people left Lebanon mainly due to civil war, not Israel, let's try to keep that in mind.

[Gunkle]

There are some truths here that need to be digested first - Hezbollah (Party of God) is a terrorist network based out of Lebanon. Lebanon is a puppet state of Syria, and if you follow the money - Iran is the puppet master.
Iran has been training these 'soldiers' - obviously not on a nationalistic level, but a religious / zealot level for a long while. They are taught how to use small arms, fabricate and employ IEDs, and probably how to use a camcorder and a dull machete.
Lebanon is an obvious neighbor to the North of Israel. Israel doesn't have problems with the Lebanese per se, but rather the terrorist network that lives there - people that are sworn to create genocide, no matter the cost. This all being done under the auspices of the master state - Iran.

We could delve into topics such as the Muslim Brotherhood, or Hamas - but the issues with Hezbollah - and by extension Iran - will do.

Iran has been funding, planning, and executing missions against the US and their allies (Canadians) in Iraq and Afghanistan for years. Iran has declared war against us, but we haven't done a thing to stop these incursions. Now, the craziest man to control a state (Ahmadinejad) wants to usher in the 'thirteenth Imam' (see: end of the world).

So...let me get this straight. Iran has been fighting a proxy war against the West for years. Now, this lunatic wants weaponized uranium to destroy the world, and we're expected to roll over for him?
Hell no! Bomb the piss out of him - and if Israel does it (see: Osriak reactor - Iraq) - a big thank you to those guys.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The aims of Hezbollah and Hammas are as much political as they are religion based.

Its easy to sit there and talk about it as a religious war, but outside of the radical minority political parties in Israel I'm curious as to how you see that their actions are based around religion, as oppossed to political and national defense.


This war is as much political or more then it is about who worships how.

I was talking about Iran, their hatred of Israel is mostly religion based.

[T@T]

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei warns of war during prayers

"You see every now and then in this way they say that all options are on the table. That means even the option of war," Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said during Friday prayers in Tehran. "This is how they make these threats against us..
"Well, these kinds of threats are detrimental to the U.S.," he said. "The war itself will be 10 times as detrimental to the U.S."

Khamenei said Iran will support any nation or group that stands up against Israel.
"The Zionist regime is really the cancerous tumor of this region and it needs to be removed and will be removed," Khamenei said to a cheering crowd.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/03/world/...html?hpt=hp_t2

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Probably around that same time Lebanon declared war on Israel in 1948? Call me unsympathetic.

No, around 1982.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by puckluck

No, around 1982.

Actually about 48

Lebanon was part of the initial Arab attack on Israel in 1948 to attempt to kill Israel in its infancy.

Remember that the PLO also settled in Lebanon with that monster Arafat in charge pre 1978 and used it as a staging base for cross border attacks on Israel, which caused retaliatory attacks by Israel into Lebanon.

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by Gunkle

There are some truths here that need to be digested first - Hezbollah (Party of God) is a terrorist network based out of Lebanon. Lebanon is a puppet state of Syria, and if you follow the money - Iran is the puppet master.
Iran has been training these 'soldiers' - obviously not on a nationalistic level, but a religious / zealot level for a long while. They are taught how to use small arms, fabricate and employ IEDs, and probably how to use a camcorder and a dull machete.
Lebanon is an obvious neighbor to the North of Israel. Israel doesn't have problems with the Lebanese per se, but rather the terrorist network that lives there - people that are sworn to create genocide, no matter the cost. This all being done under the auspices of the master state - Iran.

We could delve into topics such as the Muslim Brotherhood, or Hamas - but the issues with Hezbollah - and by extension Iran - will do.

Iran has been funding, planning, and executing missions against the US and their allies (Canadians) in Iraq and Afghanistan for years. Iran has declared war against us, but we haven't done a thing to stop these incursions. Now, the craziest man to control a state (Ahmadinejad) wants to usher in the 'thirteenth Imam' (see: end of the world).

So...let me get this straight. Iran has been fighting a proxy war against the West for years. Now, this lunatic wants weaponized uranium to destroy the world, and we're expected to roll over for him?
Hell no! Bomb the piss out of him - and if Israel does it (see: Osriak reactor - Iraq) - a big thank you to those guys.

Great post. They can't just sit back and let Iran dictate things. Yes war and death is horrible, but have people actually listened to ahmedinjad? It's going to happen whether they get attacked first or not. He's mentally challenged and the last guy I want to see with power.

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Actually about 48

Lebanon was part of the initial Arab attack on Israel in 1948 to attempt to kill Israel in its infancy.

Remember that the PLO also settled in Lebanon with that monster Arafat in charge pre 1978 and used it as a staging base for cross border attacks on Israel, which caused retaliatory attacks by Israel into Lebanon.

No, actually 1982. My parents weren't even born in 1948.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by freedogger

I guess you haven't heard of depleted uranium. Educate yourself.

Oh I see - you would like to introduce bullet by-products as equivocal to detonation of nuclear bombs?

Here's some reading to educate yourself:

1. Walton, Douglas. 1996. The Straw man fallacy. In Logic and argumentation, ed. Johan. van Bentham, Frans. van Eemeren, Grootendorst. Rob, and Frank. Veltman, 115–128. Amsterdam: Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences, North Holland.
2. Bizer, George.Y., Sirel.M. Kozak, and Leigh.Ann. Holterman. 2009. The persuasiveness of the straw man rhetorical technique. Social Influence 4(3): 216–230.
3. Ribeiro, Brian. 2008. How often do we (Philosophy Professors) commit the straw man fallacy?
   Teaching Philosoiphy 31(1): 27–38.
4. Talisse, Robert., and Scott. Aikin. 2006. Two forms of the straw man. Argumentation 20: 345–352.
   
5. Aikin, Scott F. 2010. Straw Men, Weak Men, and Hollow Men. Argumentation 25(1): 87-105.
6. The Straw Man Fallacy". Fallacy Files. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html.

[Nage Waza]

So Puckluck, are your parents describing torture during the civil war or when Israel basically liberated Lebanon from the Syrians and PLO?