Alberta PC's way out front

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by Azure

They should have a sales tax. Offset it with cuts to other taxes.

I don't get why people get so worked up about it. Its the most effective way to tax people.

Agreed - but what are the odds that other taxes will actually be cut?

That's why so many people are anti-Sales Tax. I know when my total tax burden is going to increase.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Azure

They should have a sales tax. Offset it with cuts to other taxes.

I don't get why people get so worked up about it. Its the most effective way to tax people.

The problem with a consumption tax in Alberta is that some communities close to the borders will suffer. Even in Calgary people would take a drive elsewhere for major purchases. I'm not sure how you deal with it in a place like Lloydminster, and obviously thats just one glaring example.

Originally Posted by Azure

How is fiscal restraint an extreme position?

The whole crazy extreme right wing moron schtick is getting old.

Well all of the parties are coming out and saying that they are fiscally conservative, fiscally prudent and/or responsible. The idea that the government should never, under any circumstance borrow money (which seems to be what the Wildrose is suggesting) is based on ideology though. Its not a fear tactic; I read the alternative budget they produced last year and it left A LOT to be desired. I'm sure that they'll put one out this year and we can discuss it when they do.

As you know, its all relative. The Wildrose thinks Redford is too far left and the NDP are a bunch of pinkos. Its pretty clear that if the PCs are a center-right party that the Wildrose is to their right....not sure why that is so troubling?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Makarov

It isn't necessarily an extreme position, but it certainly can be. For example, a pledge to cut all government spending by 50% would clearly be an extreme position (not saying of course that the Wildrose Party is proposing such, just using it as an example.)

Nobody is proposing that at all, so I'm not sure why you bring it up.

The Wildrose Party is clearly concerned about having a balanced budget, which they should be.

The PCs have been spending like drunken sailors for years.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Slava

The problem with a consumption tax in Alberta is that some communities close to the borders will suffer. Even in Calgary people would take a drive elsewhere for major purchases. I'm not sure how you deal with it in a place like Lloydminster, and obviously thats just one glaring example.

Lloydminster, SK is exempt from from Saskatchewan's sales tax for this very reason.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Lloydminster, SK is exempt from from Saskatchewan's sales tax for this very reason.

Oh really? I had no idea. Makes sense.

I was talking with a good friend of mine a couple years ago and he wanted to abolish income tax in Alberta and replace it with a consumption tax (yes, he's Liberal and an elected one at that!). We just couldn't get around the boundary problem though. Say that tax was 10-15% (just making up numbers, I have no idea what would work), we know people would go elsewhere for major purchases. It would definitely penalise some communities more than others and the businesses in those communities. I'm not sure how you get around that. Otherwise I like the idea though.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Slava

Oh really? I had no idea. Makes sense.

I was talking with a good friend of mine a couple years ago and he wanted to abolish income tax in Alberta and replace it with a consumption tax (yes, he's Liberal and an elected one at that!). We just couldn't get around the boundary problem though. Say that tax was 10-15% (just making up numbers, I have no idea what would work), we know people would go elsewhere for major purchases. It would definitely penalise some communities more than others and the businesses in those communities. I'm not sure how you get around that. Otherwise I like the idea though.

NASTA - North American Sales Tax Agreement. As far as US goods go you can make people pay the tax at customs. Obviously that's harder to do at a provincial level though.

[transplant99]

I took my mother out for lunch yesterday and the subject of Redford and the election came up. She has been a staunch PC supporter her entire 50 or so years of voting eligibility.....but no longer.

She made it clear its about 2 things with her...she sees Redford as nothing more than a liberal in sheeps clothing and she loathed Stelmach as well...and she feels the province has become so "entitled" since Klein left office, she will be going WRA simply because they will be hungry and aggressive in their desires to change things.

She is also a part of a group trying to get Klein (and in the spirit of full disclosure, yes he has been a life long friend) recognition by receiving the Order of Canada...a recognition entirely deserved.

If anyone else wishes to participate in this push, PM me and i will give you the info of what is being asked to be done.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by Azure

They should have a sales tax. Offset it with cuts to other taxes.

I don't get why people get so worked up about it. Its the most effective way to tax people.

I am fine with the idea of an honest discussion about more efficient forms of taxation. The thing that scares me is when the government spends every dollar they take in during a boom and then discusses raising taxes during the bust. (if you can call the slowdown a bust) The way I see it, if they were to get a new tax in place now then as things pick up again they will manage to spend it all during the next boom and we will be left in the same position when things slow down.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Slava

The problem with a consumption tax in Alberta is that some communities close to the borders will suffer. Even in Calgary people would take a drive elsewhere for major purchases. I'm not sure how you deal with it in a place like Lloydminster, and obviously thats just one glaring example.

Things are rarely perfect solutions in this world and if introduction of a sales tax can produce a net gain (such as cutting income taxes, investing some of our royalty revenues into the Heritage fund, or cash transfers to the poor) then it would be in Alberta's interest to enact one. Plus it's not like BC bordertowns have been ravaged by Alberta 0% sales tax.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

The way I see it, if they were to get a new tax in place now then as things pick up again they will manage to spend it all during the next boom and we will be left in the same position when things slow down.

Excellent point. Any form of taxation is essentially a communist system. Look at Greece, having the government to provide many services is what got them into the hole. For government isn't the most efficient structure because there's generally no profit and loss concern to them.

I fight any tax rate increase or tax base expansion. I prefer to keep my money in my pocket to support the business I deemed worth supporting.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by darklord700

Excellent point. Any form of taxation is essentially a communist system. Look at Greece, having the government to provide many services is what got them into the hole. For government isn't the most efficient structure because there's generally no profit and loss concern to them.

I fight any tax rate increase or tax base expansion. I prefer to keep my money in my pocket to support the business I deemed worth supporting.

That sure was a good thing to start the post with, it sure made it sound like you are thinking logically and have a sound understanding of things.

[MarchHare]

I prefer to keep my money in my pocket to support the business I deemed worth supporting.

Like the Canadian Forces? Or Transport Canada? Or the Canadian Food Inspection Agency? Or the Ministry of Justice?

Would you prefer if all roads and other transportation infrastructure was privatized and operated by for-profit companies rather than funded by the government via "communism"?

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Like the Canadian Forces? Or Transport Canada? Or the Canadian Food Inspection Agency? Or the Ministry of Justice?

I know total privatization of all government functions is not a reality. However, I don't agree that whenever the government decides to spend money, I should pay for it with my taxes.

Bureaucracy grows to feed the appetite of the growing bureaucracy. I believe you can cut a fraction of the public sector and still get the same productivity instead of raising taxes whenever the government gets the chance to.

I give credits to Harper for at least trying to cut the deficit in the next budget by cutting spending. I have yet to hear the from Redford or Nenshi but sin tax or penny tax. Just plain more tax.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by darklord700

I know total privatization of all government functions is not a reality. However, I don't agree that whenever the government decides to spend money, I should pay for it with my taxes.

Bureaucracy grows to feed the appetite of the growing bureaucracy. I believe you can cut a fraction of the public sector and still get the same productivity instead of raising taxes whenever the government gets the chance to.

I give credits to Harper for at least trying to cut the deficit in the next budget by cutting spending. I have yet to hear the from Redford or Nenshi but sin tax or penny tax. Just plain more tax.

Wait, how are they supposed to spend money if taxes are not paying for it? Or do you think that the government just should not spend money?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by darklord700

I know total privatization of all government functions is not a reality. However, I don't agree that whenever the government decides to spend money, I should pay for it with my taxes.

Bureaucracy grows to feed the appetite of the growing bureaucracy. I believe you can cut a fraction of the public sector and still get the same productivity instead of raising taxes whenever the government gets the chance to.

I give credits to Harper for at least trying to cut the deficit in the next budget by cutting spending. I have yet to hear the from Redford or Nenshi but sin tax or penny tax. Just plain more tax.

Do you have any evidence to support this, or is it all anecdotal? We all get the "do more with less" idea for example, but that doesn't mean its always the case.

[GP_Matt]

It is anecdotal, but there are a lot of stories about departments spending their full budget at the end of the year on frivolous things because they know that if there is any unused money in their budget then it will be cut from next years budget.
I have a friend who worked in a department that wanted a bigger plotter. They were told that they could only get one if the cost of the plotter was less than some multiple of the amount they were spending annually on having a third party provider print larger sheets for them. It seemed reasonable, but the solution at the office was to drastically increase the amount of printing that they were sending to the third party. They started printing huge volumes of stuff and just tossing it in the garbage. Within a few weeks they had spent enough money to justify the plotter so they got a new one. It is just one example, but it seems like everyone in the government has stories like that.

[Slava]

Those exact stories happen in the private sector as well.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by Slava

Those exact stories happen in the private sector as well.

yeah in the private sector people have purchasing budgets if you don't spend it all you don't get it next year.

Plenty of silly purchases in December.

[MarchHare]

It is anecdotal, but there are a lot of stories about departments spending their full budget at the end of the year on frivolous things because they know that if there is any unused money in their budget then it will be cut from next years budget.

This exact same thing happens in the private sector too (Edit: beaten by Slava and SeaBass). Just because an organization has a profit motivation doesn't automatically make it super-efficient.

I work for a consulting company with clients in both the public and private sectors (both SMB and enterprise segments). In my experience, government is no more wasteful than business. If anything, the government agencies we work with tend to be more lean than our for-profit clients (obviously this is anecdotal only).

[SeeBass]

I just love the stance of "I only like to pay for what I like"

Its called a society love it or leave it.