2011/12 Toronto Blue Jays Off-Season

[Cheese]

^^^Francisco had a 2.45ERA and 5-3 last year? Seems decent but dont know a lot about him.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ordefr01.shtml

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

Toronto Blue Jays have signed former Cincinnati Reds closer Francisco Cordero to a one year deal worth $4.5 million.
http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/2012/0...cisco-cordero/

Good signing, Jays biggest weakness last season was the Relief Pitchers...

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Eventually they'll have to overpay for free agents (barring an extreme case of good luck) if they want to sustainably succeed. The new CBA practically ensures it considering that it removed a lot of the player development things that lower payroll budget teams used to team build (Supplimental Comp. picks, overslot bonuses, unlimited dollar IFA signings). Just gotta find the right free agents to overpay on.

I completely agree, but now is not the time to do it.

Free agent contracts lose their value in the later years when the players starts to inevitably decline. Spending that money now just turns us into an 87 win team from a 82 win team. Save it for when these young arms join the MLB squad and it can turn us into a 97 win team from a 92 win team.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by JayP

I completely agree, but now is not the time to do it.

Free agent contracts lose their value in the later years when the players starts to inevitably decline. Spending that money now just turns us into an 87 win team from a 82 win team. Save it for when these young arms join the MLB squad and it can turn us into a 97 win team from a 92 win team.

Free agents lose value in their latter years, how far down the road?

The Tigers sign Fielder for 9 years, when will he lose value?

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Free agents lose value in their latter years, how far down the road?

The Tigers sign Fielder for 9 years, when will he lose value?

He should be in the same range for years 1-4. 5-7 he should be a lesser version, but not terrible. 8 and 9 nine he could be cringe worthy. That's just based off players with his body type. who knows though as he could age like Ortiz has

[GirlySports]

So if from range 1-4 he could help the Jays. Unless the Jays don't plan to contend until 2016.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

Toronto Blue Jays have signed former Cincinnati Reds closer Francisco Cordero to a one year deal worth $4.5 million.

Bad deal. Cordero's surface stats look nice but his peripherals are subpar (and getting worse as he ages) and he's moving to the toughest division in the tougher league (at least as far as offense goes)... I don't see this going well. That 4.5M is 4.5M poorly spent.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

So if from range 1-4 he could help the Jays. Unless the Jays don't plan to contend until 2016.

The problem though is from 5-9 he could cripple the franchise. The Jays are not they Yankees, Tigers, Red Sox to the point where they cannot have contract like Vernon Wells, AJ Burnett etc that are just albatross' on the payroll as they dont' have the sustatined fan support to warrant it and the deal becomes too hard to move. It was by a stroke of luck IMO that they were able to move WElls I dont' think that is going to happen twice.

I really like the Cordero deal and the Jays pen is shaping up as one of the better ones in the league which is nice for a younger rotation. Good example of why people shouldn't panic when AA let all those guys go or put the releivers in the trade he did. While only giving up 1 good prosepcts, AA has managed to turn a weakness into a strength.

[Caged Great]

The thing I like most about the Cordero signing is that it sets things up where if we aren't in a position to succeed near the deadline, it is possible that we might be able to get another Rasmus. Maybe a team has a young starter or 1B prospect that we might be able to snag for a couple relievers at the deadline.

Best case scenario is that our team is in a dogfight all year because our pen is able to pick up the slack for our average rotation.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by cross16

The problem though is from 5-9 he could cripple the franchise. The Jays are not they Yankees, Tigers, Red Sox to the point where they cannot have contract like Vernon Wells, AJ Burnett etc that are just albatross' on the payroll as they dont' have the sustatined fan support to warrant it and the deal becomes too hard to move. It was by a stroke of luck IMO that they were able to move WElls I dont' think that is going to happen twice.

I really like the Cordero deal and the Jays pen is shaping up as one of the better ones in the league which is nice for a younger rotation. Good example of why people shouldn't panic when AA let all those guys go or put the releivers in the trade he did. While only giving up 1 good prosepcts, AA has managed to turn a weakness into a strength.

I think Fielder will be good 7 of the 9 years. The last 2 years might really suck but one would think that with him, the Jays would have made the playoffs 3 or 4 times before that.

[secol]

not sure how i feel on the cordero signing.....even though he put up great stats last year his velocity was down. i'd expect him to put up stats similar or slightly better than the ones he put up in 2010

[moon]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I think Fielder will be good 7 of the 9 years. The last 2 years might really suck but one would think that with him, the Jays would have made the playoffs 3 or 4 times before that.

I still think it would be highly questionable that they make the play-offs 3-4 times in 7 years with Fielder. They would need a few more moves and/or some luck with their prospects for that to happen.

Which is why it makes more sense for the Tigers who can make the play-offs at least that much if not more with him in the line-up during his time there.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by moon

I still think it would be highly questionable that they make the play-offs 3-4 times in 7 years with Fielder. They would need a few more moves and/or some luck with their prospects for that to happen.

Which is why it makes more sense for the Tigers who can make the play-offs at least that much if not more with him in the line-up during his time there.

True but there's going to be a Fielder-like move somewhere down the road. Could be someone like Votto in free agency 2014. But sooner or later is has to be done or else it's rebuilding and recycling. It definitely has to be done before Bautista's contract ends or he'll either deteriorate or just walk.

If the Blue Jays wait until they're ready to make a move, there may be nobody around to dance with. There isn't going to another FA as good as Pujols or Fielder in the next 5 years is there?

[Flickered Flame]

Rangers reliever Koji Uehara refused a trade to the Toronto Blue Jays, according to a source. Uehara has a limited no-trade clause that includes six teams and Toronto is one of those.

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/texas...ade-to-toronto

https://twitter.com/#!/espn_durrett

[Gozer]

I wasn't terribly interested in Fielder, the whole 1-5 then 6-9 dynamic seems so arbitrary, he could be plagued by injuries or just start to suck at any time. Fielder is an excellent player, but similar thoughts could have been ascribed to Dunn or dozens of other guys that almost can't live up to that type of contract.

I'm not interested in giving any player that kind of contract.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

True but there's going to be a Fielder-like move somewhere down the road. Could be someone like Votto in free agency 2014. But sooner or later is has to be done or else it's rebuilding and recycling. It definitely has to be done before Bautista's contract ends or he'll either deteriorate or just walk.

If the Blue Jays wait until they're ready to make a move, there may be nobody around to dance with. There isn't going to another FA as good as Pujols or Fielder in the next 5 years is there?

No really strong free agents? Great then that handicaps every other team in the majors while the Jays with one of the top 3 Farm Systems in the Majors can go after a big fish through the trade market, which so many teams will not have the assets to do.

[flames_1987]

Besides fans who think that the Jays somehow have no chance of contending next year or in the near future because they didn't throw 200 million plus contracts around this offseason, this has been another extremely strong offseason for the Jays moving forward. This team is MUCH stronger already going into opening day last year and absolutely none of the future has been mortgaged going forward. The bullpen has a chance to be one of the strongest in the Majors and with some of the returns strong bullpen arms can get you around the trade deadline, AA will have a ton of cards to play.

Mind boggling the ignorance or lack of big picture thinking some fans have shown this offseason. Forgetting just how long AA has been the general manager, and how far thi steam has come in a extremely short period of time. To even propose the Jays could this quickly turn a team ranking in the basement of prospects and young talent only two years ago, to a team now being ranked by some this offseason as the best farm system in ALL of baseball.

[zukes]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

Besides fans who think that the Jays somehow have no chance of contending next year or in the near future because they didn't throw 200 million plus contracts around this offseason, this has been another extremely strong offseason for the Jays moving forward. This team is MUCH stronger already going into opening day last year and absolutely none of the future has been mortgaged going forward. The bullpen has a chance to be one of the strongest in the Majors and with some of the returns strong bullpen arms can get you around the trade deadline, AA will have a ton of cards to play.

Mind boggling the ignorance or lack of big picture thinking some fans have shown this offseason. Forgetting just how long AA has been the general manager, and how far thi steam has come in a extremely short period of time. To even propose the Jays could this quickly turn a team ranking in the basement of prospects and young talent only two years ago, to a team now being ranked by some this offseason as the best farm system in ALL of baseball.

I am just going to quote this because it could not be said better. AA has said all along, he wants to build something that is sustainable.

That means:
1) building the foundation first, to a point where you have guys in AAA that could start on many teams, we're getting there.
2) only signing a top free agent when it will absolutely put you over the top, we will get there.
3) locking up your younger core, being done since AA started
4) making shrewd trades, every trade thus far has been a win, IMO for AA.

Patience people, what's another year or two of non-playoffs if we become a team that consistantly challenges?

[VERVE]

Morrow has signed for 3 years for 20 million or if all goes well, 4 years for 30 million. He is in the top 10 for strikeouts. He did play well in the last part of the season. He does have great ace stuff when he is consistent. The Blue Jays' defense was poor behind him turning very few double plays. His split numbers are great when pitch count is 75 or fewer. According to AA who believes with Brandon's work ethic and clubhouse leadership, he will get better. I am glad he is still signed with the Jays while in his prime.

"(Morrow) has just two seasons as a starter — and 381 strikeouts in 326 innings ...

Morrow believes he has finally locked into the nasty-boy quality that he needs to succeed. The epiphany came in his final three starts of the season, which followed a 10-start rut in which he went 3-7 with a 6.83 earned-run average.
“The whole string of starts leading up to (the last three) kind of made me a little mad,” Morrow said Tuesday. “A lot of times you pitch better with a little chip on your shoulder and I hope that’s something that I can incorporate into my game a little bit more.
“I think there’s a certain level of a$$h ole that you need to be to really succeed. You look at the best athletes, and they’ve all got a little bit of that in them.” "

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...#ixzz1kTcapaQI

[GirlySports]

They may be going still going in the right direction but when is that? They are nowhere MUCH stronger right now then this time last season.

They don't have a LF. They don't have a 2B. 3B is much better but we only saw Lawrie for half a season.

15 game winner Cecil is nowhere. Snider can't prove he can hit yet, he may never be able to hit. The CF we traded for might be a lazy pantload. Morrow and Drabek took a step back, Drabek might not be MLB caliber at all. Is the bullpen really improved? I nearly spilled coffee, best bullpen in the majors? Cordero and Oliver!? Are Cordero, Oliver and Santos really that much better than Francisco, Dotel and Rzepcinsky? Dotel and Rzepcinsky were awesome in the playoffs.

Who's the DH? Are we just going to keep treating it like a fill-in position and rotate useless players like Encarnacion there? Vizquel at SS and Escobar to DH from time to time, how bout that?

Go position by position and tell me how this team is better? The team has one quality starter, one bat in RF and a bunch of question marks.

The direction might still be ok but they're a last place team in 2012. Yes I will get flamed but they're finishing last this year in AL East.
I'm not saying break the bank but a couple of free agents to supplement the youth would have been nice. Getting free agents doesn't mean win now, someone like Fielder or Darvish (for example) are still in their 20s and the target could still be 2013 or 2014. Or even more middle-ranged free agents, especially pitchers like Bedard, Harang etc... A pitching staff with Romero and 4 kids can't be good for a long 162 game season.

only signing a top free agent when it will absolutely put you over the top, we will get there.

Good in theory but there may not be a good FA at that time. There won't be as good an FA as Fielder in the next 5 years. Fielder would have destroyed the SkyDome while hitting behind Bautista.