Database advice

[Jimmy Stang]

Hello fellow nerds,

The company that I work for has outgrown our modest little Access database, and I have been asked to start exploring alternatives. I'll be perfectly honest, I'm not even sure where to begin, hence this thread.

The company provides continuing education courses for heath care professionals, and our current database is simply a place where we store customer information, registrations, etc. and then we merge that data onto receipts/confirmations, certificates of attendance, targeted mailers, and other similar things.

We also accept online registrations, but at this point it is a simple form that people fill out, which is entered into our system manually. Ideally we would like a database that can accept online and offline registrations yet store them in the same place, and perhaps even handle the credit card payments, receipts, etc. instantly (we currently do batches at the end of the day). We would also like something where people can have an account that they can log into and then register, view past registrations, print old receipts, and that sort of thing. We also need the ability to accept registrations offline (phone, fax, etc.) because our client base isn't the most tech savvy group out there, although it is improving. And, obviously, we'd want to migrate our data over to the new system as seamlessly as possible.

Even though I was able to make an Access database years ago that has done us well, I'm not a programmer and I'm not afraid to admit that I can't provide the company's next generation of database. We currently have just shy of 48,000 clients that have amassed about 98,000 registrations over about 10 years. So I think that it is time for something a little more robust than what we have.

So are there any good database consultants in town that you would recommend? I'd like to start getting in touch with some and start the quoting process sooner rather than later. Any advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Maybe some of you do this sort of thing for a living as well.

Many thanks CP!

[photon]

Sounds like you're looking more for a complete application rather than just the database itself, web based probably since you're looking for both internal and external users all with an integrated interface and all looking at the same data.

It sounds pretty straight forward and something that a good developer should be able to put together for you fairly easily.

But it won't be cheap if it's done properly. Having it available on the Internet means you need it to be done well (since it's the public face of your organization, and if it's buggy or shoddy that reflects on you), so that requires a certain level of work. Add in credit card stuff and you want to make sure it's done correctly, don't want to be on the news about how you lost a bunch of people's credit card info.

Hard to say how much it would be though, maybe a couple of months worth of work for one guy at least (varying depending on if you want a fresh new site design, exactly what features are needed, etc)?

But that's development from scratch, there might be tools/services that can get this kind of thing off the ground faster.

[northcrunk]

Check out LiveLink from OpenText. Pretty good web based database. If your looking for a Data Management system Hummingbird DM is ok but really slow to pull up files from

[Bobblehead]

As soon as you are talking having financial info in a database that can be accessed via some sort of a web portal, be sure you get someone who knows what they are doing. There are lots of vulnerabilities and while I don't think you can ever be 100% secure you do want to make it as safe as possible and that can require a strategy right from the schema out.

And be sure you get the specs all documented before you start. It is a huge PITA to try and retrofit security. It is way easier up front.

[Jimmy Stang]

Thanks for all of the responses thus far. I don't have a lot of CP time today, but just know that I am reading and I appreciate the input!

[BlackRedGold25]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Check out LiveLink from OpenText. Pretty good web based database. If your looking for a Data Management system Hummingbird DM is ok but really slow to pull up files from

That's horrible advice. Those products aren't even close to what the OP is looking for.

[photon]

Also looks like one of those things like big CRM or SAP where what they do is so massive that reading their website is like reading a foreign language.. lots of words, but no meaning.

No prices usually means "if you have to ask, you can't afford us" and "you could probably develop your own solution 10 times for the cost of us"



I'm sure OpenText stuff is fine software, I just have problems with those massive things, and I would tend to agree that it probably isn't what the OP is looking for (even though I get the sense that you could probably do what the OP was looking for with it, but the cost would probably be extremely high, and it feels like swatting a fly with a Buick).

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

As soon as you are talking having financial info in a database that can be accessed via some sort of a web portal, be sure you get someone who knows what they are doing. There are lots of vulnerabilities and while I don't think you can ever be 100% secure you do want to make it as safe as possible and that can require a strategy right from the schema out.

And be sure you get the specs all documented before you start. It is a huge PITA to try and retrofit security. It is way easier up front.

Just a word of warning, there's a lot more to it than just getting someone "who knows" when it comes to accepting and processing online payments. You'll need to be PCI certified, and that involves an end to end security assessment, regular audits, etc.

Online payment, handled on your own, can be a big proposition when it comes to delivering the IT infrastructure and process required to achieve PCI compliancy.

[Ozy_Flame]

I believe salesforce.com may have what you are looking for . . . Perhaps also Dynamics AX or an SAP solution may suffice, but you are definitely talking about a sophisticated solution to achieve what you are looking for.

[sclitheroe]

Re-reading this, I'd say you probably need more than just database advice. At 48,000 clients and close to 100k records in an Access DB, you should have been looking at something else a long time ago. Not to be snarky about it, but its a warning signal that you don't have an IT strategy, and there are probably lots of other skeletons in the IT closet that you haven't fully dealt with, the database being perhaps least among them.

How is the rest of your IT infrastructure looking? It sounds to me like it warrants a bigger picture look before running out and getting a DB guy, to help you focus in on what your real needs are in the immediate future and longer term as your organization continues to grow.

[freedogger]

There are a plethora of services on the web or on in the cloud that already do this kind of stuff. Here is one example, I'm sure there are many more that are better, it is just the first one I googled upon.

http://www.recsolutions.com/classtrack

Just make sure you can export your records from whoever you end up with.

Edit, this one looks good too:
http://www.gosignmeup.com/

There, I just saved you, $120,000.00 dollars

[MickMcGeough]

98,000 records in Access?

I don't see what the problem is here.

[Jimmy Stang]

Thanks for all of the replies so far. I appreciate all of the input. It definitely isn't going to be cheap, quick, or easy, but has definitely grown beyond the scope of my knowledge so I'll need to explore having a "pro" help us out a bit here.

The interesting thing about our current setup is that it actually works fairly well for our needs, and Access seems able to handle the volume of records that we have without any issues. It is fast, tidy, doesn't get corrupted, and although it sometimes surprises people that we're still using it, there isn't a lot to complain about. However, my boss has been pushing for something that is more integrated with the web site and a little more automated, which I can agree with to a point, but one of the reasons that we haven't upgraded in the past is because the system simply works.

And I think that sclitheroe makes a good point about needing an IT strategy, and I don't disagree, but we are a pretty small outfit (3-4 employees), and our IT needs (outside of our main database) are pretty simple. We share files, we do a little bit of word processing, design, working remotely, etc. and not a whole lot else. Admittedly, our IT strategy consists of replacing the slowest computer in the office every now and then. Although I can see the benefits of investing more time and money into our IT, for the size of our company, the benefits would not be as pronounced. That being said, our main registration/client database is the bread and butter of the business (don't worry - it is backed up in at least 3 places regularly!), and if there is one thing that we should invest in, it is this. If the place burned down today and all we had left was our database and our staff, we'd simply pick up where we left off.

I'm sure that you can tell that I'm resistant to change something, at great expense as well, that is doing the job for us. But on the other hand, having a nice, tidy package integrated with our web site would be more efficient and would probably handle the future growth more gracefully.

[Rathji]

I am actually really interested on how large the access file is.

We have a similar in-house developed information system that handles pretty much what you are considering, except the external web interface for client sign up and payment. We have had companies come in and offer us their services, with a 6 figure price tag and expensive service contacts.

Just random things to consider:

As soon as you add that external interface and payment system, things get far more complex, and costs will rise exponentially.

You can develop internal database that is managed with web based forms pretty easily if you know what you are doing (or a lot more cheaply if you are paying someone else to do it).

If it was me, I would try and outsource the pay-portal to a company that has a system setup to do so easily, and some way to import the client data from them (either they will have an API or will provide you with a data file to import).

edit: If you would like to be put in contact with the person who developed our database etc, I am sure he would be willing to consult, send me a PM.

[calumniate]

Well good on you for getting Access to fulfill your requirements up to this point. I agree with freedogger that based on the size of your outfit, buying an out of the box solution is probably the best way to go..

In reality what you are looking for is a 'student system'. UofC uses peoplesoft but that is extraordinarily complicated. However out of the box / web / cloud based student systems are now gaining traction from what I've heard. If I have some time I'll repost in here with any findings.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I am actually really interested on how large the access file is.

The front end is about 8 megabytes (forms, queries, etc.) and the back end with the tables of data is just under 90 megabytes. It is strictly text (contact, registration, and payment info), but I am still surprised at how small it is.

Our current method of collecting web registrations is for the client to enter their info (including credit card) into a secure form, which is encrypted on the server and emailed to us. We then decrypt it here and enter the information manually. And in all honesty, the girl who does the data entry is so fast, I have never been bothered with any type of import. The actual transactions take place when we export and upload a batch file of the day's credit cards to our payment processor, and we then import the results back into our system.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold25

That's horrible advice. Those products aren't even close to what the OP is looking for.

I've been a Livelink consultant for 5 years. Although you could possibly do what OP is asking with Livelink, I wouldn't advise it for this application. Firstly, it would cost a fortune. A standard Livelink install is for companies that can budget at least $500K for the software purchase, training, support, and user licenses in year 1.

I have no idea how many millions the companies I have worked for have put into Livelink, but it is more than a few. Per seat license is about $1500 with heavy discount (which you wont get unless your buying hundreds at a time).

This is all not counting the fact that Livelink is a Document Management System first. Like a network share drive with massive collaboration benefits for Enterprise. You can do external portals with it (modules), but I don't think it is a good fit either.

Lastly, good luck finding Livelink resources, and if you do, they are very expensive in Calgary right now.

So yes, I advise you not to even look at Livelink. I could have just gave you the No answer, but I hope I explained why well enough.

[freedogger]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

So yes, I advise you not to even look at Livelink. I could have just gave you the No answer, but I hope I explained why well enough.

Props to OldDutch for telling it like he did. In a similar vein, I have been writing custom software enterprise apps in Calgary for the last 12 years.

I only recommend custom apps when it involves the core aspects of what makes your company competitive. Take a company like www.pluralsight.com - online delivery of tech related courses from top intructors who share in the profits on a course by course basis. This is an endeavour that needs a custom solution.

Correct me if I am wrong, but your area of competitiveness is the actual delivery of the courses? Or you have a captive clientele that has no other option but to register through your company? You don't seem like you are trying to do more than just provide simple convenience and keep your growing base of clients somewhat organized.

Please take a ten minute look at www.gosignmeup.com. I would be really surprised if it didn't meet your needs. See the teaser pasted below. What they have created would take two of me at $120.00/hour for 4-8 months with 200 professional graphic design hours as well. A company building the same would add a part time PM, business analyst and testing resource. In our wake or a company's wake, you had better have either decent staff that can support this thing or be willing to pay a bit of a retainer every year just in case. Gee I'm a great sales guy aren't I

The place where an outside resource could help you is with getting you set up with one of these types of outfits like www.gosignmeup.com. Don't make the mistake of letting them do it all by themselves though. They should train you and at least one other person to be proficient with all the aspects of the system you decide to go with.

Access is old and definately not suitable for storing credit card data. Storing credit card data anywhere at your office is a risk if you really think about it. Browse a stupid website, malicious program gets downloaded, keyloggers, pretty sook that .mdb file is cracked and finds it's way into the wild blue yonder. Or someone breaks in and steals a machine or a laptop gets stolen. You did remember to smash the hard drive before disposing your old machines. Hopefully you used a decent program to really erase the drives if you donated the machines to a charity or such.

I recommend choosing two or three like the one below and do a pilot trial of there services to see what is really involved. Evaluate the features, the ease of use, the tech support and how viable you think the company is.

Here's the marketing spew from their site:
GoSignMeUp’s online class registration and management software can save your organization time and money. This one system can be used for both your internal and public classes, with separate online registration sites created for each. Automatically track employee training, including continuing education units completed. Easily pull transcripts, create course completion certificates, send email reminders about upcoming classes and more.
Some of the most popular features of the GoSignMeUp online registration software include:
Variable Pricing - based on registration date, course type or other criteria, so you can offer free training for employees and fee-based classes to the public
Online Payment Acceptance - participants can pay via credit card, check or PayPal
One Flat Annual Fee - no hidden fees, and all credit card proceeds go straight into your account
Paperless Registration Process - so you can save the earth and your budget
24/7 Class Registration - participants register at their convenience
Supervisor Login - department heads can enroll staff in required courses and then track participation
Communication Tools - automatically email enrollment confirmations, reminders, maps and other important information to class participants
Customizable Reports - pull transcripts, analyze enrollment statistics or view any other system data

[Jimmy Stang]

Many thanks again. I have a sick kid and I am working remotely today (and eventually heading to the doctor), so I won't have the time to respond at a level worthy of what has already been posted. Just know that I appreciate it and I'll hopefully be online more soon!

[Azure]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

Re-reading this, I'd say you probably need more than just database advice. At 48,000 clients and close to 100k records in an Access DB, you should have been looking at something else a long time ago. Not to be snarky about it, but its a warning signal that you don't have an IT strategy, and there are probably lots of other skeletons in the IT closet that you haven't fully dealt with, the database being perhaps least among them.

How is the rest of your IT infrastructure looking? It sounds to me like it warrants a bigger picture look before running out and getting a DB guy, to help you focus in on what your real needs are in the immediate future and longer term as your organization continues to grow.

This.

Often times small businesses tend to think they can be as productive as possible doing their own IT work, despite not really having someone in charge of looking after it. It can sometimes be tough to justify the added cost, but the idea should be to increase productivity, and make sure everything is covered.

We are in a similar situation at work as well. Right now we don't run any kind of CRM to keep up to speed with our customers, and upper management seems to think that it isn't necessary. Problem is we often have issues staying on top of sales or leads, especially when it comes to organization. We do almost all of our own IT work, which works fine, but implementing something like CRM software, or even integrating Salesforce or something similar is a step in a different direction, and our office staff would need training and support. Because of that I think we should look for someone with the knowledge and ability to make sure we are harnessing 'technology' to be as productive, organized and efficient as possible. Problem is finding someone that will actually do that for you where you can justify the cost because of the results you get.