2011/12 Toronto Blue Jays Off-Season

[cross16]

I think year is Morrow's make or break year. There are times he looks like a 2/3 and there are times he looks like a 5. I'm optimistic that the cutter he added last year will make him more effective than just continuing to try and pump fastballs by everyone. His stuff is as good as a 1/2 but he just can't seems to learn how to pitch effectively enough to stay there.
At least if it doesn't work, he can go back into the pen and probably be a pretty top notch set up man, but I thnk he'll emerge as a solid 3/4 option for them this year.

[Hockey]

Didn't realize the schedule was out for next year, was hoping the Jays would be in Seattle for a weekend series or during Aug 12-16 as I have time off work then. As it turns out I won't be seeing them again.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by Hockey

Didn't realize the schedule was out for next year, was hoping the Jays would be in Seattle for a weekend series or during Aug 12-16 as I have time off work then. As it turns out I won't be seeing them again.

Ya the only time the Jays are in Seattle are the end of July, which still works out for me. However last year they made two trips out to Seattle. I guess Seattle makes two trips out to Toronto this year. Maybe I'll go down to LA/Oakland in May and catch a few Jays games.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Certainly a bit of a black hole of Blue Jays buzz since Darvish ended up being posted by Texas but DJF is referencing a twitter posting about Gavin Floyd possibly being traded to the Jays. It's a random twitter account but it's something!

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Sorry to hear about the Jay's latest move, my condolences. Oliver is officially signed.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_yl...luejays-oliver

Again, I don't like him, but some argue his numbers are good. I'm just not a fan.

[St. Pats]

Now AA says they are done. http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=384682

A lot of smoke is what it appears to be in the end. Sure they upgraded some weak spots but as far as a big splash move it was all PR.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

Now AA says they are done. http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=384682

A lot of smoke is what it appears to be in the end. Sure they upgraded some weak spots but as far as a big splash move it was all PR.

It was all PR? A lot of smoke? What are you basing that on anything AS or the BlueJays said going into this offseason or ever for that matter?

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

Sorry to hear about the Jay's latest move, my condolences. Oliver is officially signed.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_yl...luejays-oliver

Again, I don't like him, but some argue his numbers are good. I'm just not a fan.

I understand your not a fan and I think that's perfectly reasonable but I don't see how people "argue" that his numbers are good. His numbers are really good, where in lies the argument?

[moon]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

I understand your not a fan and I think that's perfectly reasonable but I don't see how people "argue" that his numbers are good. His numbers are really good, where in lies the argument?

The arguments come from hom coming up small in the big moments but Maritimer and I are probably putting too much weight on his crap World Series.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

but as far as a big splash move it was all PR.

? - If anything the big splash moves were all rumours, not anything PR put out. I don't get your point. Didn't Anthopolous also state something like if you hear the Jays mentioned in a rumour its probably untrue?

[flambers]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

? - If anything the big splash moves were all rumours, not anything PR put out. I don't get your point. Didn't Anthopolous also state something like if you hear the Jays mentioned in a rumour its probably untrue?

Or the big splash would simply cost the Jays key assets which they refuse to move..... (that would be guess).

I bet the Jays did try to trade for a #2 type of Starter.....

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by flambers

Or the big splash would simply cost the Jays key assets which they refuse to move..... (that would be guess).

I bet the Jays did try to trade for a #2 type of Starter.....

It sounds like that's what AA was hinting at when he talked to the media yesterday.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

? - If anything the big splash moves were all rumours, not anything PR put out. I don't get your point. Didn't Anthopolous also state something like if you hear the Jays mentioned in a rumour its probably untrue?

Well seeing as how they were mentioned in every rumour for every player on every continent then yes no doubt a lot of them were rubbish. But AA did layout what he was after. Another starter and another bat. To me the Darvish thing sure smelled like a smoke show.

To me it looked like business as usual. Solid little moves. Not sure solid little moves are going to have them contend. But an improved bullpen isn't a bad start I guess.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

I understand your not a fan and I think that's perfectly reasonable but I don't see how people "argue" that his numbers are good. His numbers are really good, where in lies the argument?

My argument is that every time I've seen him play he's sucked. I understand his numbers are good, but I've never seen him pitch those.

I was discussing this with a friend yesterday. Perhaps he doesn't pitch well against the Jays and Red Sox. The two teams I primarily get to see the Rangers play. So, if he pitches well against the other 12 teams then his numbers will be good. Throw in the odd game I see him where he's off, and voila, it seems like he's horrible yet his stats don't show it.

I've posted earlier in this thread that when I saw Oliver was on the mound to close out game 6 I didn't have a good feeling. In fact, as much as it pained me I went into the World Series thread to find the post I made that I wasn't comfortable with him on the mount. I was right.

I didn't like Oliver before the World Series, if he had have closed out the game I still wouldn't have liked him, but would have been thankful regardless.

Perhaps the universe knows when I'm watching him pitch and he pitches poorly solely because I'm watching? I dunno?

My argument is based on experience. Nothing more.

In case you've missed it to this point, I've been a Texas Rangers fan since 1990, and am a very Very VERY lonely baseball fan.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

My argument is that every time I've seen him play he's sucked. I understand his numbers are good, but I've never seen him pitch those.

I'll take the numbers then.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by JayP

I'll take the numbers then.

That's totally fine.

At no point have I tried to argue against the numbers. I don't like him. I make no apologies for this. Frankly I think it's foolhardy to think that numbers are everything (not saying that you are saying that).

As previously stated, I wish him all the best in Toronto, and hope he performs well there. Doesn't mean I have to like the player.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

That's totally fine.

At no point have I tried to argue against the numbers. I don't like him. I make no apologies for this. Frankly I think it's foolhardy to think that numbers are everything (not saying that you are saying that).

As previously stated, I wish him all the best in Toronto, and hope he performs well there. Doesn't mean I have to like the player.

It's even more foolhardy to essentially ignore the numbers and only go by the very few chances you've clearly seen the guy pitch. In the past three seasons, Oliver has pitcher 21 innings against the Jays/Red Sox. He's pitched 185 innings total. That's only 11% of his innings, assuming you watched every one. Hardly a fair sample to judge a guy based on.

I don't hear any Yankee (1.29 ERA in 14 innings), Royal (1.15 ERA in 15 innings), or Twin (1.29 ERA in 14 innings) fans claiming we got the best reliever in the league for $4.5 million

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by JayP

It's even more foolhardy to essentially ignore the numbers and only go by the very few chances you've clearly seen the guy pitch. In the past three seasons, Oliver has pitcher 21 innings against the Jays/Red Sox. He's pitched 185 innings total. That's only 11% of his innings, assuming you watched every one. Hardly a fair sample to judge a guy based on.

I don't hear any Yankee (1.29 ERA in 14 innings), Royal (1.15 ERA in 15 innings), or Twin (1.29 ERA in 14 innings) fans claiming we got the best reliever in the league for $4.5 million

Since when is a fan's liking of a player ever fair? A fan's liking of a player is almost by definition arbitrary.

I don't like Patrick Roy, his numbers say I should love him. People here don't like the Sedin Twins, the numbers say we should love them.

I don't like Oliver, never seems to pitch well for me. At no point did I say it was a bad signing by the Jays (I did say "my condolences" in jest based on my previous statements of dislike of the guy) just that I don't like him and I'm glad he's no longer on my team.

I by no means am an MLB caliber Scout, nor do I claim to be. I've never felt comfortable with Oliver on the mound, and when the cards were down he didn't deliver. The "numbers" (and I use the term loosely only because I don't think ERA says the full story, although someone posted about his WAR being good, which I totally respect) say otherwise.

It's as if people here think I want to see Oliver crash and burn. I don't. I think I've been clear that I wish him the best in Toronto and actually want him to pitch really well there.

[Gozer]

One of the reasons I really warmed up to sabremetrics is that if you analyze how nuanced statistics are, it's almost impossible to evaluate players without the numbers. One of the easier numbers to gauge from watching a player is probably batting-average.

But one less/more hit per week is the difference between hitting .267 or .300. It's irrational to base your opinion of a player on what you remember seeing.

And you did say you "hated" the guy.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by Gozer

And you did say you "hated" the guy.

I didn't mean personally, sorry for the confusion