Had a 2002 Jetta 1.8T. Fun car to drive, but thank god for the 4 year 80,000km warranty. Car was in many times for warranty work/recall. in 2007 the driver's seat rail broke. $600 repair bill and time for a new car.
I'm a firm believer in the finite resources rule. VW spends a disproportionate amount on driving dynamics, gadgets etc. and puts long term reliability and dependability way down on the list. If you've ever worked on a Volkswagen, you see right away that they use the "just enough" mentality for the major components. Things are generally not over built by any stretch, which is fine when the car is new, but as things start to age and stress, reliability takes a downturn.
Compare a 12 year old VW to a 12 year old Toyota for example, just about everything on the Toyota is overbuilt, heavier duty, larger, more robust (this has changed somewhat recently). Sure this adds weight, expense, can be a detriment to the driving dynamics, and leaves less left over for the bells. It's a difference in philosophy, which is why it is quite rare to find a car that is dead reliable, fun to drive, lightweight, safe, well optioned etc.
BTW, VW has consistently been at the bottom rung of reliability for all auto makers, and spends a great deal more on warranty repairs vs. the most reliable brands. I personally love a couple of Audi's I think they are stellar in many ways, but I'm not sure I want to deal with the hassles, warranty or not. A friend of mine has an Audi A6, it's easy to be jealous of the car it is quite stunning, but the number of times it has been in for warranty is downright silly.
Yeah, I am expecting that. It's not unreasonable at all. Look at the MazdaSpeed 3, a 135i, STI, a base model V6 Mustang ffs. The list goes on. Yes they handle well, but they're underpowered. Why wouldn't you want more power? They can handle it for sure (see Pylon's car).
You can't compare the GTI to the STI and 135i, they are in totally different categories price wise (one being a good 8-9k more, and the other almost 15k!). The models you want to be comparing it to are the WRX (which is still 3-4k more and 270hp), and the 128i (again, 7k more so it doesnt really belong either, but still gets "only" 230hp). The Mazdaspeed is a good comparison, but that doesnt get close to 300 either....and the torque steer is out of control on that car (never mind the pokemon styling).
I agree the GTI could use more power, but I think for 29-30k you'd be hard-pressed to buy something with 300hp that isn't a muscle car (the Mustang is after all probably the best value out there), but that also has the handling and interior quality refinement of a GTI. At the end of the day, the Mustang and Subaru interiors are pretty mediocre, and the Mazda feels nowhere close to the almost Audi-spec refinement of the VW. Clearly, they spent some of the drivetrain development money on other elements...which is good or bad, depending on your viewpoint.
I like power, but I don't think it's the be all and end all of driver enjoyment. A car also has to look good, feel good, and handle well...and be within your price range. When I was in the market a few months back I actually test drove all the cars we mentioned above, and the GTI felt like the best overall value to me. I didn't end up with it (or any of these), but it wasn't for lack of hp.
Last edited by Table 5; 10-07-2011 at 09:53 PM.
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My 2000 Golf is still humming along fine, 250,000 km and still going strong. Nothing major yet, just the normal issues over 12 years - brakes, tie-rod ends, wheel bearings, tires, wipers etc.
I'm a firm believer in the finite resources rule. VW spends a disproportionate amount on driving dynamics, gadgets etc. and puts long term reliability and dependability way down on the list. If you've ever worked on a Volkswagen, you see right away that they use the "just enough" mentality for the major components. Things are generally not over built by any stretch, which is fine when the car is new, but as things start to age and stress, reliability takes a downturn.
Compare a 12 year old VW to a 12 year old Toyota for example, just about everything on the Toyota is overbuilt, heavier duty, larger, more robust (this has changed somewhat recently). Sure this adds weight, expense, can be a detriment to the driving dynamics, and leaves less left over for the bells. It's a difference in philosophy, which is why it is quite rare to find a car that is dead reliable, fun to drive, lightweight, safe, well optioned etc.
BTW, VW has consistently been at the bottom rung of reliability for all auto makers, and spends a great deal more on warranty repairs vs. the most reliable brands. I personally love a couple of Audi's I think they are stellar in many ways, but I'm not sure I want to deal with the hassles, warranty or not. A friend of mine has an Audi A6, it's easy to be jealous of the car it is quite stunning, but the number of times it has been in for warranty is downright silly.
Normally I try and stay neutral in these threads, but your opinion is so incredibly misinformed, my head almost exploded.
Compare a 12 year old VW to a 12 year old Toyota for example.
Tough to do, as more Toyota will be retired, or have major corrosion issues. VW's for the last 15 years have been built from virgin steel, and steel 40% thicker than a Toyota. Every VW has a 12 year unlimited distance corrosion guarantee. Toyota is 5 years, and they employee the use of recycled metals in their body panels.
I would point out my 2 door GTI hatchback weighs only 160 pounds less than a Toyota Camry full size sedan as a result of that fact.
If you've ever worked on a Volkswagen, you see right away that they use the "just enough" mentality for the major components.
I suggest you open the hood side by side on a VW and Toyota before you make that comparison. When I sold cars, I would place a Toyota next to the VW and do exactly that. And point out the uninsulated battery, lack of looming on wiring (usually elecrical tape), lack of adequate covers on the engine. And the flimsiness of hardware and hinges. Open the door on your Toyota and hang off the end of it with all your weight, I dare you, you will bend the door and be at a body shop on Monday. I weigh 220 lbs, and will do that to my personal vehicle if you want, come on by. We used forged hinges on every door, Toyota stamped steel.
Sure this adds weight, expense, can be a detriment to the driving dynamics, and leaves less left over for the bells.
LOL, driving dynamics and Toyota? They ended with the Supra, MR2 and Celica. Toyota's typically come in under weight, and still underperform with their weight advantage. The are usually last in any performance comparison they are put in. You need to do some homework there. The last trackl event we had when the Tiguan was launched, the only cars that couldn't finish the day were Rav4'S. All three of their power steer pumps would fail mid lap because they could not handle the load of an autocross course. They were the laughing stock of the day. Even the KIA and Hyundai could handle it, but not the Toyota. It wasn't a surprise, because the Camry did the same thing 2 years earlier. They were, like the kid with asthma in gym class that had to sit out eating Carob while everyone else was having fun.
A lot of the reliability things with VW have merit. As a brand we know that. But VW has also stated to its dealers, they will not sacrifice safety options, or fall behind in technology, to build a more reliable car. German cars will always suffer that stigma. They bring all the great new features to the auto world, then the Japanese copy, simplify, and water it down.
The best analogy of Toyota's I ever heard was from one of the top corporate Toyota people in the country. "Toyota's are for people that hate to drive." They are boring drab appliances for getting you from point A to B. The Maytag of cars. They do the job simply and reliably, but even that is in question now.
Last edited by pylon; 10-08-2011 at 10:10 AM.
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Sorry bud, but you just lost all credibility right there. Your posts are nothing more than extreme VW fanboyism, not actual knowledge.
Wow, I didn't see all these posts a page back.
Of course I am a bit of a Fanboy... every 15th and 30th they send me a nice cheque. But being an employee, doesn't completely cloud my judgment. I am master certified in every aspect of the VW retail side. Which takes about 6 years to accomplish and tend to know what I am talking about when it comes to VW.
I have nothing against Toyota's product. It fills a niche, and it is well made. But it is far from the product it used to be. Once Toyota became a domestic car, it has dramatically started to show. The new Camry is a horribly executed car, and the fit and finish is worse than Hyundai or Ford (that being said, Ford builds an incredible well made car now). Now that the new North American built Passat is in the fray, with the Toyota watered down mentality it will be interesting to see how we fare, competing from a level playing field. North America wants a boring, underpowered, de-contented 4 door appliance to get around that can be mistaken for a taxi cab, for a bargain basement price, you got it. For the people that want a true euro drive, and know how a car is supposed feel, we have the CC as the upgrade.
As far a tech goes, I am not talking about the stereo, or a DVD player for your kids. I am talking safety applications, build technology, engine management etc. One example. Every new VW's roof line is lazer welded, front to back in one unified weld. That black strip running parallel to your roof line on the top of your roof front to back on either side? A Toyota salesman will tell you it is a styling cue, or to house roof rack mounts. But why it is really there to hid the flimsy, unfinished, spot welding under neath. A process that shaves about $160 of the manufacturing cost of the vehicle, but also compromises roll over integrity. I could give you an endless list of items like these that the domestic and Japanese manufacturers employ to make "cheap" cars, but it lost on the typical North American buyer. European manufacturers build a better quality product when it comes to workmanship, and materials. The problem is, too many people mistake reliability, and durability, they are not the same. I wouldn't argue for a second, Honda/Toyota make a reliable product. Is it as durable or well made as a German car, not in a million years.
You can buy a Timex, or a Rolex. One cost 60 bucks, one cost 6 grand. The Timex is far more reliable, needs no service, no winding and looks okay. Does that mean it is better made? Which would you rather have on your wrist at the end of the day.
BTW, VW is not my favorite brand of mass market car.... but we will leave that brand a mystery.
Normally I try and stay neutral in these threads, but your opinion is so incredibly misinformed, my head almost exploded.
Tough to do, as more Toyota will be retired, or have major corrosion issues. VW's for the last 15 years have been built from virgin steel, and steel 40% thicker than a Toyota. Every VW has a 12 year unlimited distance corrosion guarantee. Toyota is 5 years, and they employee the use of recycled metals in their body panels.
I would point out my 2 door GTI hatchback weighs only 160 pounds less than a Toyota Camry full size sedan as a result of that fact.
I suggest you open the hood side by side on a VW and Toyota before you make that comparison. When I sold cars, I would place a Toyota next to the VW and do exactly that. And point out the uninsulated battery, lack of looming on wiring (usually elecrical tape), lack of adequate covers on the engine. And the flimsiness of hardware and hinges. Open the door on your Toyota and hang off the end of it with all your weight, I dare you, you will bend the door and be at a body shop on Monday. I weigh 220 lbs, and will do that to my personal vehicle if you want, come on by. We used forged hinges on every door, Toyota stamped steel.
LOL, driving dynamics and Toyota? They ended with the Supra, MR2 and Celica. Toyota's typically come in under weight, and still underperform with their weight advantage. The are usually last in any performance comparison they are put in. You need to do some homework there. The last trackl event we had when the Tiguan was launched, the only cars that couldn't finish the day were Rav4'S. All three of their power steer pumps would fail mid lap because they could not handle the load of an autocross course. They were the laughing stock of the day. Even the KIA and Hyundai could handle it, but not the Toyota. It wasn't a surprise, because the Camry did the same thing 2 years earlier. They were, like the kid with asthma in gym class that had to sit out eating Carob while everyone else was having fun.
A lot of the reliability things with VW have merit. As a brand we know that. But VW has also stated to its dealers, they will not sacrifice safety options, or fall behind in technology, to build a more reliable car. German cars will always suffer that stigma. They bring all the great new features to the auto world, then the Japanese copy, simplify, and water it down.
The best analogy of Toyota's I ever heard was from one of the top corporate Toyota people in the country. "Toyota's are for people that hate to drive." They are boring drab appliances for getting you from point A to B. The Maytag of cars. They do the job simply and reliably, but even that is in question now.
Quoted for future reference.
I have a side job working on cars, when I get the opportunity I'll take some pics of a Toyota and VW, door hinges, suspension, engine bay, electrical. That kind of thing. Sound fair?
BTW, here is the VW door abuse test, supposedly you do this to a "Hyundai or Honda" and the door will bend or even break.
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LOL, that is awesome. Forwarded to my entire sales staff. Now they can quit beating the sh1t out of our showroom cars. No matter how much abuse they take, it still make me cringe.
I did that to a used Corolla once (stand on the window ledge), and didn't end so well. I had to pay for new hinges off my pay cheque...lol.
I'd exclude Porsche from this list, I don't really hear of them having electrical issues very much (m96 engines on the other hand...). It's also always near the top of the JD Powers surveys as well, although admittedly those survey's don't mean much.
Great set of P-cars btw....especially that 993. I once had the chance to test drive a 96' 993 Cab, and it was one of the best driving experiences of my life.
You are correct. Porsche is by a stretch the best of the German manufacturers from a reliability standpoint and seem not to have the mitigating electrical woes BMW, VW/Audi and Mercedes do. The IMS failures and RMS leaks have certainly plagued many M96/97 powered cars, more reason to get a 996/997 Turbo or GT2/3 to avoid this. It will be interesting to see what happens now that Porsche is under the VAG umbrella. The Porsche and Piech families have long had close ties to VW (heck, Ferdinand Porsche designed the original Beetle) so the relationship should be harmonious for all. The 991 looks to be another stellar evolution of the 911. The 993 is a wonderful car, hope to have another someday.
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Just curious. Do you lease pre-owned cars? Does anyone do this?
You can, but it isn't worth it IMO.
The problem is you do not have factory support for the rates, so they usually come in at 7-8%. When you factory in a much lower residual, you usually end up paying on the same difference between selling price, and residual, with a higher rate. So, no, I would not recommend leasing used. With the CPO program, with rates as low as 0.9, there really isn't any reason to anyway.
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Bit of a thread hijack - are turbocharged engines (VW or other) as reliable as regularly asiprate engines? I've thought often about buying cars turbocharged engines (e.g. the new Hyundai Sonata or the new Ford V6 turbos) but I'm concerned that the turbos just leave more parts to break.
It seems with the new CAFE standards in the US that manufacturers are going with turbos - just look at the number of "entry"-level cars with standard turbos (e.g. Chevrolet Cruze - not the base model but the next-step-up model). I suppose they must be more reliable than I'd "heard" (no experience whatsover with turbo or superchargers).
BUMP, since this seems to be a general VW thread I'll post this here.
Any specific used VW models that are troublesome & worth avoiding?
Looking for a new (well used) car for my wife and we're looking at VWs. We've seen a 2001 Passat we're interested in, but I'd like to know if there's any specific models we should be checking out.
We're less concerned with the model type (sedan vs hatchback etc) and more interested in reliability & gas milage. From the few VW owners I've talked to (including my father) they've said they don't break down as often, but cost more when they do. My dad was saying he just spent $1,000 on his 2004 diesel jetta, but it's the first major repairs he's had done in 5 years outside of oil changes and such.
BUMP, since this seems to be a general VW thread I'll post this here.
Any specific used VW models that are troublesome & worth avoiding?
Looking for a new (well used) car for my wife and we're looking at VWs. We've seen a 2001 Passat we're interested in, but I'd like to know if there's any specific models we should be checking out.
We're less concerned with the model type (sedan vs hatchback etc) and more interested in reliability & gas milage. From the few VW owners I've talked to (including my father) they've said they don't break down as often, but cost more when they do. My dad was saying he just spent $1,000 on his 2004 diesel jetta, but it's the first major repairs he's had done in 5 years outside of oil changes and such.
Check out the Lemonaid books. You might need to find an older book for a 2001 model, but they list out the most common repairs/breakdowns for the models of each car.
I found it quite accurate when I was driving my Mazda. Over the 5-6 years I owned the car, I had to repair over half the things that were listed in the guide.
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My mom's 2003 VW Beetle Cabriolet has been a nightmare. Endless electrical issues. The stealership in Red Deer has just made the VW experience exponentially worse. Because of this experience I will never buy a VW and I will never recommend one (again).
Anyone want to buy a 2003 VW Beetle Cabriolet, Black/black with cream leather interior, all power options, HRE wheels, low km's. Gremlins yet to be exorcised.
BUMP, since this seems to be a general VW thread I'll post this here.
Any specific used VW models that are troublesome & worth avoiding?
Looking for a new (well used) car for my wife and we're looking at VWs. We've seen a 2001 Passat we're interested in, but I'd like to know if there's any specific models we should be checking out.
We're less concerned with the model type (sedan vs hatchback etc) and more interested in reliability & gas milage. From the few VW owners I've talked to (including my father) they've said they don't break down as often, but cost more when they do. My dad was saying he just spent $1,000 on his 2004 diesel jetta, but it's the first major repairs he's had done in 5 years outside of oil changes and such.
VW is not the best choice if reliability is your main concern.
The Japanese cars are way more reliable and offer better value.
During those relatively brief stints when a VW is providing trouble-free transportation, they are damn nice. I still miss my '91 Passat 5-speed wagon and I sold it 10 years ago. Don't miss the huge, non-stop outrageous repair bills, though.
It will be interesting to see what happens now that Porsche is under the VAG umbrella. The Porsche and Piech families have long had close ties to VW (heck, Ferdinand Porsche designed the original Beetle) so the relationship should be harmonious for all. The 991 looks to be another stellar evolution of the 911. The 993 is a wonderful car, hope to have another someday.
