US/Saudi sign $30 billion dollar arms deal

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by blankall

This is exactly it. The F-15 is better than whatever Iran has, but it doesn't stack up against the new F-35s. The US can easily decide to "take away" these planes if push comes to shove.

Right now a F4 Phantom can probably outfly most of the weapons in the Iranian arsenal.

If its the SA variant that they're talking about it would be interesting to see what the mix is as the Saudi's have the C (Single Seat Air Superiority) D (Twin seat trainer) SE (Strike Eagle Ground attack) variants in their airforce.

All of them fall under the designation of SA

[zuluking]

The day that selling arms to the Middle East is better for the US than approving an oil pipeline from Canada is the day hell freezes... ... is it getting cold in here?

[CaptainCrunch]

Harper should be on the phone to Obama with the whole "Hey buddy, what the f%ck".

We need to accelerate our planes to sell our oil elsewhere.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I was curious about that, and besides the massive Saudi back lobby groups in the States the only thing that I could find on Obama's fundraising campaigns and the possibility of foreign contributions was a failsified Maureen Odowd report.

I remembering Fox or someone reporting in the last presidentual election that Obama's on line donations were easy for foreign donors and large donors to go undetected. Anyone from out of country who donated had to just click a box declaring citizenship. Small donation of $25 required no documentation other than reporting the amount. Because it was a computer you could send 1000s of donations of $25 easily and not be detected. There was a way to detect multiple donations made off of a signal credit card but, Obama's team had disabled that feature in the program.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Harper should be on the phone to Obama with the whole "Hey buddy, what the f%ck".

We need to accelerate our planes to sell our oil elsewhere.

The only chance I could see the pipeline getting through B.C. is if Harper was able to cut a deal with the nothern Native tribes to pass through their land. The green movement is too strong on the coast to pull it off otherwise.

I really hope that Keystone can be revived before that happens. Even with less profits I'd rather sell to the States because that benefits both Country's security.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

The only chance I could see the pipeline getting through B.C. is if Harper was able to cut a deal with the nothern Native tribes to pass through their land. The green movement is too strong on the coast to pull it off otherwise.

I really hope that Keystone can be revived before that happens. Even with less profits I'd rather sell to the States because that benefits both Country's security.

At some point that pipeline is going to go through there, or the government will find another way, finding other markets for our energy is too important to be held up by lobby groups.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Right now a F4 Phantom can probably outfly most of the weapons in the Iranian arsenal.

If its the SA variant that they're talking about it would be interesting to see what the mix is as the Saudi's have the C (Single Seat Air Superiority) D (Twin seat trainer) SE (Strike Eagle Ground attack) variants in their airforce.

All of them fall under the designation of SA

It sounds like you know much more about it than I do, so I'll refer to you on expertise over air superiority. That being said, I don't think the Saudis are looking for a close victory. With the massive amount of F-15s coming in - 84 F15s plus upgrade to the existing 70 - they'll be able to have total air superiority.

During middle eastern wars, air superiority has been shown to be the deciding, if not only factor. There's no guerilla warfare in the dessert, so if you can use your bombers at will, it doesn't matter how big or well armed the other sides ground force is.

Noone has confirmed anything yet, but Russia and China may be selling Iran a mix of Su-30, J-10s, an JF-17. Even rumours of these sales are going to be enough for the Saudis to demand an upgrade of their own arsenals.

[868904]

Originally Posted by blankall

Another issue is Russia and China. The US could easily put a contingent agreement on this arms sale, like you must allow political reform. However, the Saudis would probably jsut say screw you, we're going to warm up to China and Russia instead. China and Russia are all about their own interests (even moreso than the US) and are totally uninterested in any kind of human or environmental rights.

Yes China is the bad guy, much worse than the US.

I mean look at all the invasions and wars that China has started.



Don't be so naive. Every country has human rights and environmental rights issues.

If you can sit here and complain about Saudi Arabia funding lobby groups in America to combat Keystone, then you should understand that there are similar anti-chinese groups funding lobby groups to taint China's human rights and environmental records.

It's all politics.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by 868904

Yes China is the bad guy, much worse than the US.

I mean look at all the invasions and wars that China has started.



Don't be so naive. Every country has human rights and environmental rights issues.

If you can sit here and complain about Saudi Arabia funding lobby groups in America to combat Keystone, then you should understand that there are similar anti-chinese groups funding lobby groups to taint China's human rights and environmental records.

It's all politics.

I don't think the US is in any way innocent. It's all one game of push and pull.

However, I think a large part of the US's foreign policy is based on the fact that China and Russia do not play by the rules. I don't need to get my information from "anti-Chinese lobby groups". The information is readily available to anyone who looks. While the US is supplying Saudi Arabia with fighter planes, China is flooding the region with AK-47 knockoffs used by militias in Iran and Sudan.

China is more of a recent player on the scene, but Russia (formerly the USSR) has a been a major player for a long time. While Russia and the US have been limiting small arms sales recently, China has quickly filled the gap.

Oil exports from the Saudis to China now exceed those to the USA:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/20/bu...t/20saudi.html

China has shown a willingness to sell Saudi Arabis weapons, including ballistic missiles, the US won't.

Basically, what I'm saying is that both the US and China have taken their own aproaches to middle easter policy. The US is much more likely to invade. Meanwhile China is much more likely to fund unethical governments with weapons designed to be used on civilian populations. Without the US there would be no war in Iraq. Without China the arms embargo against Sudan might have worked.

[CaptainCrunch]

If I remember right, China was busted recently for selling weapons into Libya essentially breaking the UN boycott.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I remembering Fox or someone reporting in the last presidentual election that Obama's on line donations were easy for foreign donors and large donors to go undetected. Anyone from out of country who donated had to just click a box declaring citizenship. Small donation of $25 required no documentation other than reporting the amount. Because it was a computer you could send 1000s of donations of $25 easily and not be detected. There was a way to detect multiple donations made off of a signal credit card but, Obama's team had disabled that feature in the program.

that came from a false report created in the name of Maureen O'dowd (I think that's her name. Fox fell for a phoney letter.

If Obama is getting money from the Saudi's or any candidate its coming in through those lobby groups.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by blankall

It sounds like you know much more about it than I do, so I'll refer to you on expertise over air superiority. That being said, I don't think the Saudis are looking for a close victory. With the massive amount of F-15s coming in - 84 F15s plus upgrade to the existing 70 - they'll be able to have total air superiority.

During middle eastern wars, air superiority has been shown to be the deciding, if not only factor. There's no guerilla warfare in the dessert, so if you can use your bombers at will, it doesn't matter how big or well armed the other sides ground force is.

Noone has confirmed anything yet, but Russia and China may be selling Iran a mix of Su-30, J-10s, an JF-17. Even rumours of these sales are going to be enough for the Saudis to demand an upgrade of their own arsenals.

It depends on the war that you want to fight. But the Su-30 is in a lot of ways the superior aircraft, The J-10 from my understanding compares favorably to the f-16, jf-17 is from what I've seen slightly inferior to the F-16.

I would probably take the F-15 right now over the J-10, jf-17 and call it fairly close between the 15 and the SU-30.

Where Saudi Arabia would have the advantage is in pilot training and experience. Most of the pilots that were involved in the Gulf Wars went on to training slots and passed actual war experience to the new pilots coming in.

They were also trained by veteran American pilots.

The Iranian Airforce has a bad reputation in terms of pilot skills and in terms of maintenance and their ability to get spare parts in to keep their inventory in the air.

To be honest the Iranian Airforce is kind of the poor brother in the Iranian Inventory, they still believe that their army and republican guards will save the day, they also know deep down that their Navy will die in a matter of days if they try to close the Straits down.

The F-15E is one of the best air to ground package delivery systems in the world despite its age, it can carry massive loads in extremely low and fast and hit with pin point accuracy especially with the avionices in the new generation.

The worry isn't sweeping aside the Iranian Airforce, the worry is handling the Iranian's very advanced Russian/Chinese designed anti-air system, if they struggle to take that apart then air superiority means very little for the short term.

[SeeBass]

South Africa and apartheid = boycotts and embargoes

Saudi Arabia and women= we sell them weapons

Free world women time for you to step up and demand more from your goverment

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The minute that they reduce their reliance on mid east fossil fuels China and Russia will certainly take advantage of it and push their own agenda.

Obviously, North Americans should be saving our own oil for the future... Russia will eventually bring the fight for oil to our Arctic

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

South Africa and apartheid = boycotts and embargoes

Saudi Arabia and women= we sell them weapons

Free world women time for you to step up and demand more from your goverment

I'm not convinced that any of Saudi Arabia's enemies whether inside or outside of their country would treat women any better. I am certain that if Saudi Arabia's government fell and there was civil war women would suffer.

[SeeBass]

^

women should demand more from their goverments and that includes dealing with countries that treat other women like cattle.

Of course I wish it was that simple, but it is not, but I can't believe the silence from women.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

^

women should demand more from their goverments and that includes dealing with countries that treat other women like cattle.

Of course I wish it was that simple, but it is not, but I can't believe the silence from women.

The problem is ultimately partisan politics. The feminist groups always get lumped in with the left wing groups. This means they can't attack a muslim nation, because that is a right wing thing to do.

So instead of seeing feminist groups marching against places like Saudi Arabia, you see them marching against places like Israel, which probably has more gender equality than any other nation on the planet.

A lot of people would be a lot better off if they stopped declaring themsevles as left/right wing and actually just fought for the issues they believe in.

[SeeBass]

^^
yes and women should stand together

I am always amazed at the strength/pull of being left or right over ones own gender and other things that would normaly seperate us in our opinion's.

Left or right seems to be the dominate wedge that very few change, even over what would bein their own best interests.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Azure

I think the overall point is that the US is funnelling money and arms, besides just the F-15s to a country that is often friendly to terrorist groups.

Quite frankly I could care less if they sell anyone F-15s. The technology, as advanced as Saudi Arabia will think it is, will still be extremely dumbed down.

My problem is that the US does this deal partly to keep Iran in check, and partly because they need oil from Saudi Arabia. And yet the Keystone Pipeline is pushed to the side, and Canada is willing to provide the US with oil and we don't even need a $30 billion dollar arms deal.

The US should just take over Saudi Arabia, Kuwait etc. What a waste funneling billions of dollars into desert tribes stuck in 8th century so they can go around building ski resorts in the deserts, buying soccer teams as toys and financing terrorist groups all over the planet.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Right now a F4 Phantom can probably outfly most of the weapons in the Iranian arsenal.

Isn't their airforce made up of Mig Fulcrum's, Mirage's and a few older Tomcats? Their pilots may not be stellar but the equipment is pretty good.