As Violence worsens, drugs become cheaper and more available

[Notorious Honey Badger]

it scares me how much CP and myself are agreeing with mikey right now.

[Hilch]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Spoken like a true stoner: It's too hard-it can't be done!

If government changed its focus it could be wiped out in a generation.

How do you know he is a stoner, just because he is defending the other side or might devulge in it? I don't smoke pot, well not ever but on rare occassions, and I can see the benefits of it being legal. You say studies are only what you want to hear so provide some studies that show places like Holland and Portugal have seen an increase in marijuana users going to harder drugs and/or using it at work. Show things like marijuana use in those countries increasing at higher levels than other countries that keep it illegal. If it is the problem you claim it to be it will be easy for you to do.

Also to your point in the quote if it could be done it would have already happened but as it was shown it hasn't worked. The US has spent already close to $40 BILLION dollars this year federal and state level with no success of stopping it, or even putting a tiny, tiny dent into it. So what makes you think Canada could do anything to stop it? You keep saying "tougher penalties" but do you think that will honestly work? Did it work during the alcohol prohibition or was that how organized crime was started?

You bust his friends and throw them in jail, there is someone right behind them setting up shop again. You will never stop the problem, so why not take advantage of the tax benefits. Spend that money on education children, putting the police man hours and money into truly harmful drugs and pump money into the health system. Let's assume they tax the $7b in sales similar to how cigarettes are taxed they would bring in over $4b to that province alone, make that nation wide and you have the solution to the nation debt and/or spending issues.

I'm curious, would you be in favor of making alcohol and cigarettes illegal because of the harm is causes society? If not, what's the difference between them and marijuana?

[Hilch]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Does anyone have any demographics figures on the achievements of marijuana users?

I bet regular users (at least once a day) are on average less educated, paid less, and overall crappier than your average Canadian citizen.

I think you would be shocked at who uses marijuana on a daily basis but how many people like politicians, lawyers, judges, police officers would admit to use when it is illegal. Ted Turner admits to smoking a joint every day and he did alright for himself, Richard Branson, Steve Jobs, Steven Kings, etc. Look at entertainers (movie stars and musicians) and athletes (Michael Phelps, Ricky Williams).

I think anyone who uses it regularly as a child/teen would see the effects in their life time but that could be said for cigarettes, alcohol and prescription drugs. But someone who is of age 18-21+ should not have to hide under a rock to smoke a joint when people can use much worse things like cigarettes and alcohol with no prosecution.

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by Azure

Not sure if it is a federal issue, or how much influence the federal government has. If BC as a province decides to legalize pot, I'd be really curious as to how the Supreme Court would rule.

well I say that because of the new law he is pushing, bill c-10

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Yep, so why add another vice which encourages people to act like dregs of society.

Except for your last point of course, if you are being serious, it shows that you are missing the bigger picture by a huge amount. There are many barriers that people of different races face and your ignorance on systemic and immigration issues is really coming through.

No you missed the point that I was making fun of your ignorance and generalization.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Hilch

How do you know he is a stoner, just because he is defending the other side or might devulge in it? I don't smoke pot, well not ever but on rare occassions, and I can see the benefits of it being legal. You say studies are only what you want to hear so provide some studies that show places like Holland and Portugal have seen an increase in marijuana users going to harder drugs and/or using it at work. Show things like marijuana use in those countries increasing at higher levels than other countries that keep it illegal. If it is the problem you claim it to be it will be easy for you to do.

Also to your point in the quote if it could be done it would have already happened but as it was shown it hasn't worked. The US has spent already close to $40 BILLION dollars this year federal and state level with no success of stopping it, or even putting a tiny, tiny dent into it. So what makes you think Canada could do anything to stop it? You keep saying "tougher penalties" but do you think that will honestly work? Did it work during the alcohol prohibition or was that how organized crime was started?

You bust his friends and throw them in jail, there is someone right behind them setting up shop again. You will never stop the problem, so why not take advantage of the tax benefits. Spend that money on education children, putting the police man hours and money into truly harmful drugs and pump money into the health system. Let's assume they tax the $7b in sales similar to how cigarettes are taxed they would bring in over $4b to that province alone, make that nation wide and you have the solution to the nation debt and/or spending issues.

I'm curious, would you be in favor of making alcohol and cigarettes illegal because of the harm is causes society? If not, what's the difference between them and marijuana?

Alcohol and cigarettes are addictive. Alcohol not as much as cigarette but, both are difficult to quite once you are addicted. That is why prohibition was doomed to fail. It didn't help that Canada was willing to smuggle booze in.

Obviously America has had the same problems with drugs on both borders. The difference is Canada also has a prohibition on the same drugs. The Mexican border needs to be secured for a variety of good reasons. Also, we have better technology today which wasn't present during prohibition. The fight is winable.

To answer your question I would love to see both outlawed but, I know no law works without the will of the of the people. You won't get Canadians and Americans supporting such an effort any time soon. They both are ingrained in our culture.

What you are suggesting is adding another vice for no better reason than adding more tax revenue. If legalized marijuana ever became as popular as beer imagine the increase in road accidents and work place accidents. Marijuana offers the user instant mental impairment. That might be good for the user if they got some life they want to waste but, it isn't for society in general and certainly those who have to deal with them.

[SeeBass]

This conversation is pointless if people are just going to make things up to fit their point of view. Welcome to the internet I guess.

How can you guys have a conversation about pot legalization when the item in question isn't even agreed upon.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

well I say that because of the new law he is pushing, bill c-10

I completely understand where you are coming from, but I do believe BC had the right to setup 'shoot up' clinics. Although I might be mistaken.

I would love it if a province took a chance and legalized it. The issue would go to the Supreme Court and they might possibly rule it as something the provinces have control of, and BC might legalize it. We need someone out of the door. Everyone else would follow.

[Hilch]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

What you are suggesting is adding another vice for no better reason than adding more tax revenue. If legalized marijuana ever became as popular as beer imagine the increase in road accidents and work place accidents. Marijuana offers the user instant mental impairment. That might be good for the user if they got some life they want to waste but, it isn't for society in general and certainly those who have to deal with them.

Why would it increase? If what you claim is true about it being so easy to hide than what would change? Again show me a study that links legalization of marijuana and increased usage of the drug compared to other countries. Seems to me the two countries in Europe that it was legalized (or close to in Holland's case) have the lowest percentage of users in any country in Europe, both being nearly 1/3rd of the USA who has one of the toughest drug policies in the world.

You keep saying that marijuana users are wasting their life, which isn't at all true. As I listed above many successful and smart people admit to smoking marijuana on a regular basis. And people you know that you think would never could be doing it, you would be shocked!

Forget the average "stoner", would you be in favor of at least passing some type of law that would allow doctors to prescribe it to patients?

And honest question, have you ever smoked marijuana before?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Alcohol and cigarettes are addictive. Alcohol not as much as cigarette but, both are difficult to quite once you are addicted. That is why prohibition was doomed to fail. It didn't help that Canada was willing to smuggle booze in.

Obviously America has had the same problems with drugs on both borders. The difference is Canada also has a prohibition on the same drugs. The Mexican border needs to be secured for a variety of good reasons. Also, we have better technology today which wasn't present during prohibition. The fight is winable.

To answer your question I would love to see both outlawed but, I know no law works without the will of the of the people. You won't get Canadians and Americans supporting such an effort any time soon. They both are ingrained in our culture.

What you are suggesting is adding another vice for no better reason than adding more tax revenue. If legalized marijuana ever became as popular as beer imagine the increase in road accidents and work place accidents. Marijuana offers the user instant mental impairment. That might be good for the user if they got some life they want to waste but, it isn't for society in general and certainly those who have to deal with them.

So basically what you're saying is that you want to rule and regulate the lives of private citizens and tell them what they can't and cannot do because you personally don't agree with smoking pot, or drinking....or other activities.

North Korea would welcome you with open arms. Perhaps you should move to a country that loves controlling their citizens.

Fact is that you're basically making #### up as you go. More work place accidents? Road accidents? Who the hell is talking about making it legal to smoke and drive? Nobody is saying it should be legal to smoke pot at work either. You 'facts' are based on what you personally have seen, and given your obvious personal opinion against pot or alcohol, your 'results' are extremely biased.

To me this is neither a health issue nor a mental issue. There are worse long-term side affects from eating fast food on a daily basis than there are from smoking pot on a daily basis. It is a freedom of choice issue. And if we live in a truly free society, people should be able to choose to do whatever the hell they want to do to their own bodies provided it does not harm someone else.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I have to have drug tests in order to drive truck in your country.

That makes sense.

I don't have to have drug tests in order to sit at a desk in this country.

Are my co-workers in danger?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

That makes sense.

I don't have to have drug tests in order to sit at a desk in this country.

Are my co-workers in danger?

No your co-workers are not in danger but, your employer might be in danger of lost productivity. He/she might take issue with you willingly breaking the law.

Maybe he/she wouldn't and WCB would see no danger in you breaking the law recreationally on your own time.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Azure

So basically what you're saying is that you want to rule and regulate the lives of private citizens and tell them what they can't and cannot do because you personally don't agree with smoking pot, or drinking....or other activities.

North Korea would welcome you with open arms. Perhaps you should move to a country that loves controlling their citizens.

So I take it you are in faviour of abolishing the FDA because they stick their nose in private citizen's lives all the time. Just think of all the money Americans would save on booze and medication.

Originally Posted by Azure

Fact is that you're basically making #### up as you go. More work place accidents? Road accidents? Who the hell is talking about making it legal to smoke and drive? Nobody is saying it should be legal to smoke pot at work either. You 'facts' are based on what you personally have seen, and given your obvious personal opinion against pot or alcohol, your 'results' are extremely biased.

One logically follows the other. You honestly can't see a correlation between being mentally impaired and making poor choices. You need a study to link the two? Really?

Originally Posted by Azure

To me this is neither a health issue nor a mental issue. There are worse long-term side affects from eating fast food on a daily basis than there are from smoking pot on a daily basis. It is a freedom of choice issue. And if we live in a truly free society, people should be able to choose to do whatever the hell they want to do to their own bodies provided it does not harm someone else.

We've already extablished there are harmful things in our society that regardless of their harm society wants. Why add another one to the list? The argument seems to be that it is unstoppable but, I disagree. Government just need to change strategy.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

No your co-workers are not in danger but, your employer might be in danger of lost productivity. He/she might take issue with you willingly breaking the law.

Maybe he/she wouldn't and WCB would see no danger in you breaking the law recreationally on your own time.

So when you said mandatory drug testing for all would make workplaces safer, you meant it would make workplaces safer from lost productivity?

My employer doesn't care what I'm up to when I'm off the clock.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Hilch

I think you would be shocked at who uses marijuana on a daily basis but how many people like politicians, lawyers, judges, police officers would admit to use when it is illegal. Ted Turner admits to smoking a joint every day and he did alright for himself, Richard Branson, Steve Jobs, Steven Kings, etc. Look at entertainers (movie stars and musicians) and athletes (Michael Phelps, Ricky Williams).

I think anyone who uses it regularly as a child/teen would see the effects in their life time but that could be said for cigarettes, alcohol and prescription drugs. But someone who is of age 18-21+ should not have to hide under a rock to smoke a joint when people can use much worse things like cigarettes and alcohol with no prosecution.

Here is are the names of XXXX, XXXX and XXXX. These are successful people who do not do drugs of any kind. Point ended.

Also, "worse things such as cigarettes and alcohol" are very subjective and sweeping (for SeaBass, I might also add ignorant) statements.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Hilch

Why would it increase? If what you claim is true about it being so easy to hide than what would change? Again show me a study that links legalization of marijuana and increased usage of the drug compared to other countries. Seems to me the two countries in Europe that it was legalized (or close to in Holland's case) have the lowest percentage of users in any country in Europe, both being nearly 1/3rd of the USA who has one of the toughest drug policies in the world.

Easier access will translate into more usage. You don't need a study to see that. A study in Holland doesn't translate to what would happen in North America. The cultures are different. Also, we don't know how much of a law they had before legalization and if there was any real enforcement.

Originally Posted by Azure

You keep saying that marijuana users are wasting their life, which isn't at all true. As I listed above many successful and smart people admit to smoking marijuana on a regular basis. And people you know that you think would never could be doing it, you would be shocked!

That seems like a hollow argument to me. You certainly can't say that marijuana helps their creativity or enhances their ability to problem solve. At best their usage just represents a none productive part of their life. For others with less God given abilities it might be the difference between a slightly productive life and a drain on society.

Originally Posted by Azure

Forget the average "stoner", would you be in favor of at least passing some type of law that would allow doctors to prescribe it to patients?

Yes I am. There is already laws in place. I don't know if they are too restrictive here or not.

I do know some States have basically legalized the stuff by allowing a marijuana perscription for just about anything. I'm thinking specifically of California and Washington.

Originally Posted by Azure

And honest question, have you ever smoked marijuana before?

As a teenager.

[Hilch]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Here is are the names of XXXX, XXXX and XXXX. These are successful people who do not do drugs of any kind. Point ended.

Also, "worse things such as cigarettes and alcohol" are very subjective and sweeping (for SeaBass, I might also add ignorant) statements.

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove, of course some people are going to be successful even if they don't do drugs, no one is debating that. But it seems that some think that because you use marijuana you will never have success in life, it's incorrect. I'm sure there are people that have never touched marijuana yet dropped out of schoool, live pay check to pay check, are on welfare or became homeless because of other bad choices, etc.

It's been studied and shown marijuana is less harmful than either cigarettes and alcohol. Unless you want to produce a study saying otherwise.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

So when you said mandatory drug testing for all would make workplaces safer, you meant it would make workplaces safer from lost productivity?

It would obviously have benefits for both depending on the job.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

My employer doesn't care what I'm up to when I'm off the clock.

Then you would be in the clear other than the potentual of a fine and possible travel restrictions if caught.

But, what if your employer wanted to get rid of you? Perhaps he could find a cheaper replacement. Perhaps you are rocking the boat too much. Would it then be worth the risk just to polute your mind for a few hours on the weekend?

I'm not suggesting that drug testing would eliminate the problem completely. What it would do is shrink the problem considerably which would make enforcement manageable. Organized crime would be lucky to be making millions as opposed to the billions they make today.

[Hilch]

Actually I'm done with this. Calgaryborn can continue to live in his 70s cave.

[C_of_Red28]

First, the government and the court system are just providing a band aid solution. This is why the drug industry has grown in Canada. Law enforcement agencies know where known drug houses or grow ops are however due to the loops the court systems have put in place have made it difficult for police agencies to act on them. This makes it difficult to obtain a conviction. Organized crime hired the best lawyers and the government hired the "best bid" lawyers (not saying that they are all bad..) however this makes it easier on organize crime.

Second organize crime will still make profit even if its legalize. Organize crime still makes profits of alcohol and tobacco and its legalized. So what makes marihuana different. Organize crime is still able to sell and obtain alcohol and tobacco at a lower rate than the regulated rate the government has provided.

Third if you legalize marihuana. The government will want to regulate it. (just like cigarettes) This will be lower levels of THC. Currently some citizens are allowed to possess marihuana by the way of medical marihuana. These people are often seeking organized crime from stronger marihuana because the marihuana provided from the government is terrible. Thus in a nut shell.. Organize crime is still making a profit.

Lastly, if marihuana was legalize.. who do you think would make the profits... who has the commercial size grows, the commercial size equipment, and the understanding to produce the best marihuana products..... ORGANIZE CRIME.

I dont want to waste me time and write a story here.. so I made it quick and simple.. People who think marihuana should be legalize are either pot smokers themselves... or uneducated... Myself I am not a marihuana smoker and have looked into both sides of the arguments.. I have also watched marihuana documentaries and my conclusion is the legalization of marihuana is only good for pot smokers and organized crime.