Calgary Organic Food Delivery?

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

How are you applying scientific knowledge in the real world when the theories you have advanced are not actually sufficiently backed by scientific knowledge?

a lot, not all, of the scientific aspect of permaculture, has to do with plant relationships. here a few examples;

symbiotic nitrogen fixation - legumes fix atmospheric nitrogen to their roots, which makes it available for surrounding plants thru rhizobium bacteria. nitrogen is an essential building block of amino acids, essential to life. if you plant a legume (nitrogen fixer) next to a tomato plant (heavy nitrogen consumer), you complete the nutrient cycle without having to add any outside nutrients, like your typical miracle-gro tomato food.

biochemical pest suppression - some plants exude chemicals from roots or above ground parts, that can suppress or repel pests and protect neighboring plants.

then there is the entire field of soil science. it's not just sun the plants need, it's all the nutrients in the soil. in conventional farming, n p & k are the 3 nutrients used to feed the plants. problem is, healthy plants need much more than the 3 macro nutrients. they need many other micro nutrients to remain healthy, such as calcium, magnesium, sulphur, iron, manganese, zinc, boron and copper. a shortage of any of the nutrients the plant needs will result in a nutrient difficient plant. and what do you think happens when humans eat a nutrient difficient plant? we don't get the nutrients we need and begin to suffer the consequences.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by valo403

What does that making calling a journalist a food expert then? Is that like calling my milk man a mechanic, but he only works on cottage cheese?

then we can agree that his 'expert' is no more, or less, qualified than my 'expert'. it only makes sense to level the playing field.

[troutman]

"nutrient deficient plant"?

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...s/organic.html

Organic foods are certainly not more nutritious [12]. The nutrient content of plants is determined primarily by heredity. Mineral content may be affected by the mineral content of the soil, but this has no significance in the overall diet. If essential nutrients are missing from the soil, the plant will not grow. If plants grow, that means the essential nutrients are present. Experiments conducted for many years have found no difference in the nutrient content of organically grown crops and those grown under standard agricultural conditions.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

then we can agree that his 'expert' is no more, or less, qualified than my 'expert'. it only makes sense to level the playing field.

No we can't. His 'expert' is at least an expert on something involving food, yours is not in any way shape or form.

I'll put it to you this way, you need to get your Honda fixed and have a choice of two people who can work on it. Choice A is your mechanic who only works on Toyota's, Choice B is my milkman. Who are you going with?

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by troutman

"nutrient deficient plant"?

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...s/organic.html

Organic foods are certainly not more nutritious [12]. The nutrient content of plants is determined primarily by heredity. Mineral content may be affected by the mineral content of the soil, but this has no significance in the overall diet. If essential nutrients are missing from the soil, the plant will not grow. If plants grow, that means the essential nutrients are present. Experiments conducted for many years have found no difference in the nutrient content of organically grown crops and those grown under standard agricultural conditions.

are they using the same seed source for their comparison? i bet they are. seeds have been bred for centuries to acquire/eliminate wanted/unwanted characteristics. conventional seeds have been bred for their fruit to last longer during transportation over thousands of km's, they have been bred for uniformity for packaging purposes and they have been bred for uniformity for harvesting as well. if you use the same seed source (genetics) then i can totally see why they get these results.

i'd like to see a study that compares an heirloom variety vs it's conventional cousin. that's where you will see the genetic and nutritional diversity.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by valo403

No we can't. His 'expert' is at least an expert on something involving food, yours is not in any way shape or form.

I'll put it to you this way, you need to get your Honda fixed and have a choice of two people who can work on it. Choice A is your mechanic who only works on Toyota's, Choice B is my milkman. Who are you going with?

how is a philosopher any more credible than a journalist regarding food?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

how is a philosopher any more credible than a journalist regarding food?

Philosopher? Who are you talking about? I'm talking about the guys you referenced as confectionery and dairy scientists. Here are their credentials.

Gregory R. Ziegler

Ph.D., Cornell University, 1988, Food Engineering (Minors in Chemical and Agricultural Engineering)
M.S., Clemson University, 1982, Animal and Food Industries (Food Science)
B.S., Penn State University, 1980, Food Science

John A. Lucey

B.S. Food Science, University College, Cork (Ireland) 1988
Ph.D. Food Chemistry, University College, Cork (Ireland) 1992

You know what, I'm not even going to give you the 'mechanic who only works on Toyota's' part anymore, because those guys are quite clearly experts in food science, not just chocolate or dairy.

So who fixes your car, these experts or the guy who delivers your cheese?

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by valo403

Philosopher? Who are you talking about? I'm talking about the guys you referenced as confectionery and dairy scientists. Here are their credentials.

Gregory R. Ziegler

Ph.D., Cornell University, 1988, Food Engineering (Minors in Chemical and Agricultural Engineering)
M.S., Clemson University, 1982, Animal and Food Industries (Food Science)
B.S., Penn State University, 1980, Food Science

John A. Lucey

B.S. Food Science, University College, Cork (Ireland) 1988
Ph.D. Food Chemistry, University College, Cork (Ireland) 1992

You know what, I'm not even going to give you the 'mechanic who only works on Toyota's' part anymore, because those guys are quite clearly experts in food science, not just chocolate or dairy.

So who fixes your car, these experts or the guy who delivers your cheese?

what you are failing to see, is he quoted a 3rd guy, named chris hallquist, whom torque dog claimed to have a masters in biology from the university of wisconsin. when, in fact, from chris hallquists own website, he is actually only a master of philosophy. that is the guy i was referring to.

if you're going to add nothing constructive to the thread at least read the entire posts, is that too much to ask?

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Lawton

Seems like a credible source to me.

I don't mean to come off as a dick here, but he's a permaculture consultant, what do you think his position is going to be? This is like saying that an acupuncturist is an unbiased source on the validity of acupuncture. There's a reason that peer review is a critical component of the scientific method. Even the most disciplined scientist is prone to bias - we're only human, after all.

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

are you an engineer by chance?

No, and I'm not sure what relevance that has.

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

easy now! if it's not on scientific graph paper, it can't be true!

geoff is amazing and the work he does, does not get the respect it deserves, because it's not the typical laboratory science, most square heads don't give permaculture the time of day.

Yes, all the scientific studies I've read are on ... 'scientific graph paper'. I'll be sure to correct any mathematicians I see using 'scientific' graph paper for their silly math calculations to use the right kind next time.

Most people don't give permaculture the time of day because there's simply not enough valid evidence to back up the claims of permaculture advocates. Much of it is based on pseudoscience. I must say, for someone who claims to not have tilted their hand as far as their own position, you sure look at these things with a lot of emotion... and not very much reason.

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

you want me to go thru your links, but won't take the time to look at mine? who's close minded?

You're providing me with YouTube videos in a serious discussion. Nevermind that they're meant to sway opinion and not provide actual evidence. Adapting science to TV rarely works. There's too much information to squeeze into something that is meant primarily to entertain. Give me something that has sources that can be checked and validated. YouTube videos are not them, they make you look like a flake and someone who isn't willing to do the research they go around yelling at everyone else to do.

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

gregory r. ziegler - specializes in confectionary products, mainly chocolate.

john a. lucey - researches dairy, mainly milk proteins.

chris hallquist - is not a biology major, he has a masters of philospohy.

ziegler and lucey are experts in their field, i don't question that. but how do you translate a confectionary scientist and a dairy scientist into a full on 'food expert'?

as for hallquist, he is not a biology major like you stated, he has a masters in philosophy. is his degree in philosophy that much more valuable than a journalist like pollan, whose work you call 'tripe'?

Pollan's work is unscientific tripe. I've found references that Hallquist is a major in biology and philosophy, and I'm in contact with him to validate this.

As far as the other two, Valo403 has quite nicely taken care of that, no need to repeat what he already said.

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

i am not saying that scientific methods have no value, they absolutely do.

what i'm saying is a am witnessing and participating in a positive change in the way we can feed the world with safe and healthy food. anybody can rely on the scientific book knowledge, but if you can't apply that knowledge in the real world, what is the value of that book knowledge.

And I am saying that anecdotal evidence is the one thing science has learned we cannot trust. As your math teacher would say, show your work.

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

to sum up my stance in one word: permaculture.

i entered the discussion because i wanted to know more about what people think of organics. imo, organics is a highjacked term that has the vanity of 'the right thing' but is more a form of save the world type marketing.

my food hierarchy: backyard > local > local organic (certified or not) > organic > conventional farming

To sum up my stance in two words: evidence, please.

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

what you are failing to see, is he quoted a 3rd guy, named chris hallquist, whom torque dog claimed to have a masters in biology from the university of wisconsin. when, in fact, from chris hallquists own website, he is actually only a master of philosophy. that is the guy i was referring to.

if you're going to add nothing constructive to the thread at least read the entire posts, is that too much to ask?

Thanks for the misrepresentation of my claim. I stated Chris Hallquist majored in Biology. I never stated he had a master's degree in it. I've contacted Chris to verify as I have found sources (not his website) that insist he does.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

what you are failing to see, is he quoted a 3rd guy, named chris hallquist, whom torque dog claimed to have a masters in biology from the university of wisconsin. when, in fact, from chris hallquists own website, he is actually only a master of philosophy. that is the guy i was referring to.

if you're going to add nothing constructive to the thread at least read the entire posts, is that too much to ask?

I've been responding to this quote right here

ziegler and lucey are experts in their field, i don't question that. but how do you translate a confectionary scientist and a dairy scientist into a full on 'food expert'?

Guess who wrote that? The apparent inability to use caps tells me it's you.

If you're going to add nothing constructive to thread at least be accountable for your own words, is that too much to ask?

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by valo403

I've been responding to this quote right here



Guess who wrote that? The apparent inability to use caps tells me it's you.

If you're going to add nothing constructive to thread at least be accountable for your own words, is that too much to ask?

sure, a dairy expert knows more about food than a philosopher, but food is such a broad term, i don't feel comfortable calling a dairy expert a food expert. he knows his little corner of the food world, but surely he can't know about all food related issues.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Thanks for the misrepresentation of my claim. I stated Chris Hallquist majored in Biology. I never stated he had a master's degree in it. I've contacted Chris to verify as I have found sources (not his website) that insist he does.

my bad, it wasn't intentional.

you'd think on his own website, he would have his credentials accurate.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

sure, a dairy expert knows more about food than a philosopher, but food is such a broad term, i don't feel comfortable calling a dairy expert a food expert. he knows his little corner of the food world, but surely he can't know about all food related issues.

For crying out loud, read their god damned resumes again. These guys didn't go to bovine University. They have Ph D's and M.S. in food science and food engineering. You've presented a journalist and activist to counter these guys. Do you not see how full on moronic that argument is?

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by valo403

For crying out loud, read their god damned resumes again. These guys didn't go to bovine University. They have Ph D's and M.S. in food science and food engineering. You've presented a journalist and activist to counter these guys. Do you not see how full on moronic that argument is?

again, i'm not questioning their credentials, i'm questioning their relevant experience.

if i graduate as a chemistry major, but work in specialized field of quantum chemistry, can i be called an expert in the field of theoretical chemistry just because i studied chemistry?

[Bill Bumface]

Pop quiz moncton golden flames!

9/11:

Government or terrorists?

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

Pop quiz moncton golden flames!

9/11:

Government or terrorists?

completely irrelevant to the discussion, why?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

again, i'm not questioning their credentials, i'm questioning their relevant experience.

if i graduate as a chemistry major, but work in specialized field of quantum chemistry, can i be called an expert in the field of theoretical chemistry just because i studied chemistry?

You know if someone was looking to tie permaculture to diminished cognitive reasoning your posts in this thread may be a good place to start.

Let's go back to this question:

You need to get your Honda fixed and have a choice of two people who can work on it. Choice A is your mechanic who only works on Toyota's, Choice B is my milkman.

Who are you going with?

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

Pop quiz moncton golden flames!

9/11:

Government or terrorists?

oh, i see now. you're trying to discredit my character by relating food to 9/11. very clever! that's the true sign of a critical thinker!

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by valo403

You know if someone was looking to tie permaculture to diminished cognitive reasoning your posts in this thread may be a good place to start.

Let's go back to this question:

You need to get your Honda fixed and have a choice of two people who can work on it. Choice A is your mechanic who only works on Toyota's, Choice B is my milkman.

Who are you going with?

i reluctantly go to the honda mechanic, because he knows more about cars than a milkman. but he still might not be able to fix my toyota.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

my bad, it wasn't intentional.

you'd think on his own website, he would have his credentials accurate.

Chris e-mailed me. He did major in biochemistry, however he never completed the degree program:


"Here's how my college career went:


(1) Started off majoring in biochemistry
(2) Added a philosophy double major
(3) Dropped biochemistry for history (double major with philosophy)
(4) Dropped history for neuroscience (still a double major with philosophy)
(5) Dropped neuroscience and graduated with just a philosophy degree."


Does it entirely invalidate Chris' review of Pollan's book that he never finished his degree? Not necessarily, I don't think so. He still approaches Pollan's statements critically and evaluates them on their merit. This is more than you've done... that is, read them, take them as gospel, and shout at those who call them into question.

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

again, i'm not questioning their credentials, i'm questioning their relevant experience.

if i graduate as a chemistry major, but work in specialized field of quantum chemistry, can i be called an expert in the field of theoretical chemistry just because i studied chemistry?

I'm not even sure this is worth dignifying with a response. Wow.