Occupy Calgary/Do Not Merge

[Slava]

First of all kudos for coming here and posting. While I'm fairly sure your viewpoint won't be popular here I still give you full credit for coming and putting it forward.

I'll just start with the basic question I have. Where do you draw the line at this 1% /99%. Are we talking Calgary? Canada? North America? Globally? It just seems so ambiguous.

Also, to keep this pretty broad, what are the main points of this movement. We've seen a lot of different demands/goals to the point where I really have no idea what you guys are after anymore. Don't write a huge essay...just the high points will be fine I think.

TIA

[burn_this_city]

I'm talking about credible solutions. No system is perfect, but the one we have is likely the best one in the world. No one says that you can't complain, but at least provide tangible solutions to the issues you see.

Problems like the transalta scam are just noise if we're talking big picture changes, same for the price of gas. I'd argue that the government here does work for the people, I don't see the same systemic issues that plague the US system. Folks might not like Harper, but at least we can change the channel in 4 years if we don't like the results.

The movement has been hijacked by the fringe, I'm sorry but the ideas put forth aren't realistic. How do we move away from a monetary system? How do you eliminate the consumerist culture? Some people might be minimalists, but that doesn't fly for everyone. How do you motivate people to be productive members of society if there isn't any reward?

[idnami]

Slava, Thanks. I'm kinda getting used to being unpopular!

I've spent the last six weeks listening, reading, spell checking and publishing the many messages to the point where I am actually able to break it down to one thing. It's a quite big thing really so it's no wonder the message seems confused and lost on many people. But this is it in a nutshell: Human rights are suffering monstrous abuse due to an undue focus on profit motive.

Many people think we are saying corporations are bad, money is bad, having to work is bad, banks are bad... well some people do think that. I don't. What I think is that we really, REALLY need to think harder about what we are supporting with our hard work and money. Because some of the things we are supporting are killing people... and hurting us. You buy a pair of sneakers at Wal-Mart, you get a good deal, right? But the people who made those sneakers were in all likelihood paid incredibly poorly, so their quality of life suffers. YOU get a crappy pair of sneakers, so your quality of life suffers. Thanks to everyone wanting to save a buck or two, the independent shoe store owner down the street went out of business, so his quality of life and that of his family suffers. Then he has to go work at Wal-Mart because his business tanked and he hates it so the customers suffer!

This is one example. My feeling is that what this is all about is admitting to ourselves that we are participating in a system that is stacked against nearly everyone in some way. And then find ways to withdraw support for that system. I read today that if the "Occupy Christmas" movement succeeded in curtailing the xmas spending frenzy it would cause global economic disaster! I think it's a little scary that so much depends on this season's spendaholicism that the economy would bottom out without it. What do you think?

[burn_this_city]

Hilarious response to my post on the occupy blog, the Kardashians? Brilliant rebuttle when you're here bitching about stereotypes.

[idnami]

Burn, I think of myself as exceptionally productive. For me that IS the reward. I realize that's not enough for everyone, but the world will burn out if we don't take a closer look at things.

Make money and buy stuff, but think about where you buy from. Think about what you support. That's my credible solution so far. If you have better ideas, bring em! Its not about occupy vs everyone else. It's about people coming together to talk about making the world better. And you know what? Our current group is largely unsuited to the task. I agree absolutely. But suppose instead of making fun of those people you help figure out the credible solutions? Maybe your ideas won't be any better than mine but all we can do is try, right?

[moon]

Originally Posted by idnami

I think what people are really mad at the movement for, myself included honestly, is that it hasn't been effective. Because it kind of gave some of us hope for a minute there, didn't it? That we could rethink debt-based consumer culture and begin demanding fairness and justice. Us, ourselves! Without waiting for someone else to do it for us!

So they left it up to a handful of campers in a park and are disappointed with the results?

I would say that for the most part this is not what people are mad at at all.

And this kind of thinking that everyone is with you and that the Occupy Movement and the morons involve come close to representing most people is what angers people much more than your lame excuse.

[idnami]

I'm pretty sure I haven't mentioned stereotypes but exactly what do you expect when you take the time to read the thing and then say "I'm tired of wasting my time reading this nonsense"???
So don't read it then. Do I come to Calgary Puck and complain about everyone talking about hockey?
It's about the 10th time someone has said something like that and the irony stopped being funny a while back. Now it's just boring. Surely you can do better.

[ken0042]

[Mod voice]
I'm just going to throw this out here- this discussion could easily begin to get heated. Idnami has been good enough to come forward and allow for some open discussion. Let's all keep this civil. I know this can be an emotionally charged issue; so let's focus on keeping everything as polite as possible.
[/Mod voice]

[idnami]

So what are you mad at Moon? And don't call me a moron. I think it's clear I'm fairly intelligent. I'm sure you are too so back up your point accordingly.

[burn_this_city]

You would probably avoid repetition if the Occupy Calgary movement avoided muzzling opinions that disagree with theirs. Seems counter productive to discussion of the issues.

You did mention stereotypes about showering and offered up your own of people who disagree with the movement. Since we're all zombies who watch the Kardashians if we don't throw our support behind OC.

[Kybosh]

The whole occupy movement is too large and unfocused to be any good to anyone. They claim to be protesting for so many different reasons. The focus seems to be to "keep the dialogue going", but no amount of dialogue will ever change anything.

If you see an issue in the world, focus on one aspect and try to make a difference.

You see problems with homelessness? Get involved with social awareness groups, volunteer at homeless shelters, lobby local MLAs/MPs etc.

You want to provide clean drinking water for everyone? Educate yourself on the issues, volunteer with appropriate organizations, research current technologies etc.

You see injustices within politics? Get involved again. Nobody becomes a MLA or MP overnight. Start, you guessed it, volunteering and being involved in the political process anyway you can. The Morgans seem to really grind occupiers gears and most don't agree with their politics, but they have made themselves involved.

Making a real change, is much harder than holding a public space hostage.

[idnami]

Burn, no one gets muzzled for discussing issues. If you look at the comment boards there is a LOT of dissent, discussion and refinement of ideas going on there and several self professed non-supporters taking part in civil conversation with us. And we are all learning.
People do however sometimes get the sharp side of my keyboard for repeating ignorant and irrelevant remarks. I mean seriously, you come on OUR blog and tell us you are tired of reading it? So again, don't come then! If I came here and said I was tired of reading about hockey exactly what would you say to me?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by idnami

Slava, Thanks. I'm kinda getting used to being unpopular!

I've spent the last six weeks listening, reading, spell checking and publishing the many messages to the point where I am actually able to break it down to one thing. It's a quite big thing really so it's no wonder the message seems confused and lost on many people. But this is it in a nutshell: Human rights are suffering monstrous abuse due to an undue focus on profit motive.

Many people think we are saying corporations are bad, money is bad, having to work is bad, banks are bad... well some people do think that. I don't. What I think is that we really, REALLY need to think harder about what we are supporting with our hard work and money. Because some of the things we are supporting are killing people... and hurting us. You buy a pair of sneakers at Wal-Mart, you get a good deal, right? But the people who made those sneakers were in all likelihood paid incredibly poorly, so their quality of life suffers. YOU get a crappy pair of sneakers, so your quality of life suffers. Thanks to everyone wanting to save a buck or two, the independent shoe store owner down the street went out of business, so his quality of life and that of his family suffers. Then he has to go work at Wal-Mart because his business tanked and he hates it so the customers suffer!

This is one example. My feeling is that what this is all about is admitting to ourselves that we are participating in a system that is stacked against nearly everyone in some way. And then find ways to withdraw support for that system. I read today that if the "Occupy Christmas" movement succeeded in curtailing the xmas spending frenzy it would cause global economic disaster! I think it's a little scary that so much depends on this season's spendaholicism that the economy would bottom out without it. What do you think?

Well thanks for the response. At least its not as crazy as I might have expected. Frankly though the "issue" is so broad that its impossible to have any tangible impact or results.

Specifically regarding the example of Wal-Mart, its a bad choice. The OWS movement seems to imply that they've uncovered these issues like this and no one pays attention...but the reality is that no one pays attention because its a problem that doesn't need fixing! Here, lets talk about Wal-Mart and their current status.

First of all did you know that Wal-Mart (WMT) has a supply chain code of conduct that specifically works to support workers rights, wages, no child labour, labour conditions, etc.? Probably not. Oh, and that supply chain code of conduct doesn't only apply to Wal-Mart and their employees; its actually two levels deep. That means its suppliers suppliers. This has more positive impact in the developing world than anyone camping in a public park ever will. Workers in these countries want to work for WMT because the conditions are better, the wages are better, and it affords a better standard of living as a result. This forces other employers to move to a similar style of employer-employee relation because if they want to keep employees they must follow this lead.

Second, I'll address the issues of the "local" or "independent" business. Firstly, they don't exist. I have no idea where you would go to buy shoes that are made anywhere near here. Lets consider Forzanis though. Good local corporation with Calgary roots and not the evil WMT that can't shake the child labour/sweat shop stigma. Well its the exact opposite problem. Forzanis was pressed through socially responsible investors for years to implement a supply chain code of conduct and refused to do so, or promised to do it and year after year failed to meet the standard. Is that the type of local business you would prefer?

There seems to be a romantic notion of small business being good and big business bad. Well here is a consideration: small business does everything it can to become big business! Thats the point. I also laugh because where do you draw the line between small and big business? If a guy works hard and expands to two cities is he "off the list"? Its a silly idea. Tim Hortons would likely be a bad company now, but when it started it would've been fine...even though its still selling coffee and doughnuts.

Lastly, the independent shoe retailer in your example wasn't run out of business by WMT. He closed because he wasn't making enough money. His customers felt his prices exceeded his value. Thats just economics 101. If you have a business and compete on price it better be the best price around. If you aren't competing in price you better have something else to offer to justify the higher prices, or go work for someone who does.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by ken0042

[Mod voice]
I'm just going to throw this out here- this discussion could easily begin to get heated. Idnami has been good enough to come forward and allow for some open discussion. Let's all keep this civil. I know this can be an emotionally charged issue; so let's focus on keeping everything as polite as possible.
[/Mod voice]

Wouldn't be awesome if the mod voice brackets actually worked, and when you scrolled it on the screen, this deep echoey god voice came crashing through the speakers?

patent pending

[idnami]

Originally Posted by Slava

I'll just start with the basic question I have. Where do you draw the line at this 1% /99%. Are we talking Calgary? Canada? North America? Globally? It just seems so ambiguous.

I missed this part. I think the 99%/1% thing is kind of an arbitrary figure actually. It is my understanding that there are a very small number of people controlling the vast majority of wealth and resources.

As to whether they are 1,2,3 or whatever% they do say that 73.45 of all statistics are made up on the spot! I actually don't care what the figure is. For me, its human rights and the many ways in which they are violated when money matters more than humans do.

And there is no reason why there shouldn't be a general outcry against it. I care about pollution, government misspending and corporate crime but these are all just symptoms of the same core problem. When we begin treating individual symptoms it gets easier for that disease to spread wherever we aren't looking, which is why occupy has been very hesitant to draw up a list of demands. It's like playing whack-a-mole. You slam your big foam mallet thingy down as the mole disappears and the next one pops right up.

That's a bad analogy... but kind of apt actually. I've gotta use that somewhere.

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by pylon

Wouldn't be awesome if the mod voice brackets actually worked, and when you scrolled it on the screen, this deep echoey god voice came crashing through the speakers?

patent pending

Intellectual property gives the bourgeois an unfair advantage.

[moon]

Originally Posted by idnami

So what are you mad at Moon? And don't call me a moron. I think it's clear I'm fairly intelligent. I'm sure you are too so back up your point accordingly.

I am not mad at anything.

And I didn't call you a moron specifically.

[idnami]

"Frankly though the "issue" is so broad that its impossible to have any tangible impact or results."

I don't agree with you there. Human rights are human rights. If we are participating in the violation of human rights, we can do better.

"First of all did you know that Wal-Mart (WMT) has a supply chain code of conduct that specifically works to support workers rights, wages, no child labour, labour conditions, etc.?"

Yeah but do they enforce it? http://ilrf.org/sites/default/files/...%2022%2007.pdf

"There seems to be a romantic notion of small business being good and big business bad. Well here is a consideration: small business does everything it can to become big business! Thats the point. I also laugh because where do you draw the line between small and big business? If a guy works hard and expands to two cities is he "off the list"? Its a silly idea. Tim Hortons would likely be a bad company now, but when it started it would've been fine...even though its still selling coffee and doughnuts."

Big business isn't necessarily bad... except when it's bad. I'll drink Tim Hortons if I'm desperate for a caffeine fix but the stuff tastes awful. I prefer Good Earth... Also a chain you'll note, but one which serves high quality fair trade beans.

It's just about consciousness and choices. I don't see what the problem is with that.

[sketchyt]

An incredible amount of this Occupy movement verbage is basically repeated in most of Naomi Klein's work. It's old news wrapped up in a new and muddled package.

What has made Klein famous and respected (debatable... but we'll leave it at famous if you wish) is that she has been able to back up her Walmart-themed stories with case studies, research (biased, but still valuable) and for the most part, a pretty even keeled voice.

In the case of Occupy Calgary, what they've done is basically repeat the slogans but are unable to reason and understand the way Klein has in her life's work.

Her words: "Something is happening," she said. "You're giving the people courage. You're telling them they're not alone and they're not crazy. You're giving them a space to find one another. But this is not group therapy -- we also want to change the world. This movement has to create democratic structures. It just can't happen overnight, but I beg you not to fetishize not having a structure. We made that mistake, and it destroyed our movement."

From the antagonistic way Olympic Plaza protestors have been dealing with... well... any kind of authority with others and themselves, it would appear to me you folks are making the same mistake she speaks of and essentially pissing in the well you're drinking from.

[photon]

Originally Posted by sketchyt

you folks are making the same mistake she speaks of and essentially pissing in the well you're drinking from.