Feaster: "I really feel Jarome will finish his career here in Calgary"

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by 2macinnis2

I'd agree with that, but I think the bigger problem is what he's bringing, or rather not bringing, to the team over the last couple years. He's scored goals and that's about it. He's become a perimeter sniper in a Brett Hull-mode.

I think that is a complete over statement and another example of something that's parroted on this forum to the point where a lot of people take it as gospel.

The team has been terrible for a few years now, but Iginla was still 8th overall in scoring last season.

Yes, he can and is capable of more than he's showing right now, but the entire offense is out of sync and gripping their sticks.

In the grand scheme of things he still brings a lot to the table and can still be a big factor for this team moving forward, especially if we see an influx of youth over the next few years.

[Stay Golden]

There are plenty of forwards who are loafers I would prefer Feaster to deal near the trade deadline for draft picks and deserve to get moved before trading Iginla.
After the trade deadline roll with even a few more rookies with energy.
After that.
Get that lottery pick, add it to next season with a new look Sven, Byron, Brodie, Smith, Comeau, Stemniak rebuild with all that cap space some quality UFA's get that desired Center and Iginla.
Will take 2 years but i would rather go with that plan.

[2macinnis2]

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

I think that is a complete over statement and another example of something that's parroted on this forum to the point where a lot of people take it as gospel.

The team has been terrible for a few years now, but Iginla was still 8th overall in scoring last season.

Yes, he can and is capable of more than he's showing right now, but the entire offense is out of sync and gripping their sticks.

In the grand scheme of things he still brings a lot to the table and can still be a big factor for this team moving forward, especially if we see an influx of youth over the next few years.

Not that I've bothered to look but how many points did Hull put up in his last few seasons with the Blues and Stars? He was a pretty important part of that stars Cup team. That said, he wouldn't have had a lot of value on a young rebuilding team.

I watched A LOT of Blues hockey after Al was traded there and I can tell you in an educated manner that Iginlas game is closest to Hulls now. Hull was a prolific scorer too. It's just not the type of player I'd hoped in 04 Iginla would become. If you think he's done much more than score the last 3 years or so, you're watching with a little bias, IMO.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

I think that is a complete over statement and another example of something that's parroted on this forum to the point where a lot of people take it as gospel.

The team has been terrible for a few years now, but Iginla was still 8th overall in scoring last season.

Yes, he can and is capable of more than he's showing right now, but the entire offense is out of sync and gripping their sticks.

In the grand scheme of things he still brings a lot to the table and can still be a big factor for this team moving forward, especially if we see an influx of youth over the next few years.

Obviously with a no trade it has to be up to Iginla, but from a purely clinical point of view the most value Iginla brings to the team is his trade value, of course he will still be a worthwhile player if he chooses to stay, but he is worth immeasurably more if he goes.

As a veteran player/mentor to younger players Iginla frankly isn't much use, he hasn't had years of playing on a winning organization that goes deep into the playoffs like an older Red Wing or the like, he has a history of being hard to coach, not exactly a quality you wish to teach younger players and he also traditionally has a few soft months each season, again not really a good example to a younger player, ultimatly you do not want to pass on the values of the Flames of the last 5 years really as they have been an under achieving team.

[2macinnis2]

Pretty much agree with AFC.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Wow great topic, with rich insights!

Iggy, iggy iggy, what can we say. He has a NTC and NMC so he has final say on all transaction matters. I agree with the notion that we are sucking with him and without him. Last year, Post ASG he carried us I agree, but when he lost the steady play of Mo our team started to return to the style of play we see now. I still feel his style of play would be useful to our team even in a rebuild.

I see alternatives to trading him, but they may be as controversial as suggesting trading the ST. Albert Superstar. In a failing business, you must take stock of all assets in order to consider flexibility for return to profitability.

I say that if we can trade Gio we could land a sizable return. The play of Brodie has really inspired me of late. He has really become chippy and confident in front of the crease. Added to his offensive promise and I see a good replacement. To me if a real rebuild is the case, then players above the age of 25 with the exception of those with bad contracts, organizational importance, community importance and poor performance, should be moved. Unfortunately for Gio and his fans, it could be that he could land us a big package of picks considering his good contract and relative age.

Our defence without him would be less mobile, but I feel we have the assets in the pipeline or within the upcoming draft. Brodie also eases the loss of Gio.

So we move Gio, Bourque, Sarich, Hannan, stempniak, moss, glencross(due to stupidity), Tangs and Joker. that could jump start a rebuild so much so that we have a bunch of pick options for this upcoming draft. None of those players land a top 10, maybe gio, but a mid first and seconds and thirds in a deep draft could become valuable.

our defence is then Bou, Butler, Brodie, Babchuck, Carson, Smith, and depth options, too me that's fitting of a team with lottery aspirations in the deep 2012 draft.

if we tank at the right time ie this year and next year we could have a chance to get quality pieces. look at how Bartschi is doing? he fell in a deep draft and our mid 1st round pick looked good in that sense.

Another thought is trading Kipp. That is a surefire solution to expedite the rebuild as he has been the reason we have won at all this year. He routinely makes key saves to keep this team alive. Last night notwithstanding as I feel he was bailed out by the ineptness of the officials. He, if traded, could also be a chance for CT and Napolean to take up the mantle. It could be tough, but he could add to the pick and prospect haul, while securing lottery tickets.

In all, I wouldn't trade Iggy, I'd like it to be a cinderella story. If we get the right system with the incoming youth to this team, we could surprise. I feel we have a good opportunity seize upon our place as a bottom 5 team, since the problems they have aren't to be remedied without a stud centreman like one of the Staals, so what can you do? I say stay the course and keep the captain but send off his shipmates with any lustre. If you trade kipp, and your picks turn out and a few FA signings we could surprise again....soon, this way and 2-4 years.

[VladtheImpaler]

/\

Gio cannot be traded for at least a year now I would say...

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

Wow great topic, with rich insights!

Iggy, iggy iggy, what can we say. He has a NTC and NMC so he has final say on all transaction matters. I agree with the notion that we are sucking with him and without him. Last year, Post ASG he carried us I agree, but when he lost the steady play of Mo our team started to return to the style of play we see now. I still feel his style of play would be useful to our team even in a rebuild.

I see alternatives to trading him, but they may be as controversial as suggesting trading the ST. Albert Superstar. In a failing business, you must take stock of all assets in order to consider flexibility for return to profitability.

I say that if we can trade Gio we could land a sizable return. The play of Brodie has really inspired me of late. He has really become chippy and confident in front of the crease. Added to his offensive promise and I see a good replacement. To me if a real rebuild is the case, then players above the age of 25 with the exception of those with bad contracts, organizational importance, community importance and poor performance, should be moved. Unfortunately for Gio and his fans, it could be that he could land us a big package of picks considering his good contract and relative age.

Our defence without him would be less mobile, but I feel we have the assets in the pipeline or within the upcoming draft. Brodie also eases the loss of Gio.

So we move Gio, Bourque, Sarich, Hannan, stempniak, moss, glencross(due to stupidity), and that could jump start a rebuild so much so that we have a bunch of pick options for this upcoming draft. None of those players land a top 10, maybe gio, but a mid first and seconds and thirds in a deep draft could become valuable.

our defence is then Bou, Butler, Brodie, Babchuck, Carson, Smith, and depth options, too me that's fitting of a team with lottery aspirations in the deep 2012 draft.

if we tank at the right time ie this year and next year we could have a chance to get quality pieces. look at how Bartschi is doing? he fell in a deep draft and our mid 1st round pick looked good in that sense.

Another thought is trading Kipp. That is a surefire solution to expedite the rebuild as he has been the reason we have won at all this year. He routinely makes key saves to keep this team alive. Last night notwithstanding as I feel he was bailed out by the ineptness of the officials. He, if traded, could also be a chance for CT and Napolean to take up the mantle. It could be tough, but he could add to the pick and prospect haul, while securing lottery tickets.

In all, I wouldn't trade Iggy, I'd like it to be a cinderella story. If we get the right system with the incoming youth to this team, we could surprise. I feel we have a good opportunity seize upon our place as a bottom 5 team, since the problems they have aren't to be remedied without a stud centreman like one of the Staals, so what can you do? I say stay the course and keep the captain but send off his shipmates with any lustre. If you trade kipp, and your picks turn out and a few FA signings we could surprise again....soon, this way and 2-4 years.

With Gio done for a good chunk of the rest of the season it is unlikely you can move him this year.
I suspect at best Iginla will retire a year or two before the new team is ready to challenge.

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by 2macinnis2

If you think he's done much more than score the last 3 years or so, you're watching with a little bias, IMO.

Score to the tune of being top ten in the NHL you mean? In addition to fighting and other intangibles.

It's not bias, it's just keeping it real. Iginla is not a 38 year old Brett Hull right now. That's ridiculous.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

With Gio done for a good chunk of the rest of the season it is unlikely you can move him this year.
I suspect at best Iginla will retire a year or two before the new team is ready to challenge.

Yeah, he might be back in Feb, or a little earlier, but he still would have similar value.

[Otto29]

Iginla will be a Calgary Flame for his whole career. I believe Iggy when he says he wants to win with this team.

[Where ru Chris O'Sullivan]

There is NO reason to blame Iginla for this team and it's record.

-In over 10 years of his being, the Flames have failed to draft ANY complimentary scoring help.

-Now in his mid 30s and STILL excellent cond. the Flames have failed to surround him with support up front.

This team has let him down, but he hasn't let this city down. If he chooses to stay and I hope he does, there is work to be done but , seeing guys like Selanne (oh, with some talent around him?) he can still finish out a brilliant career here and there is 0 excuse for us not making the playoffs, when Nashville,Phx, Dal, Min are knocking on the door every year.

Firing this coach who got to handpick his staff this year and still fails, is step #1.

[2macinnis2]

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

Score to the tune of being top ten in the NHL you mean? In addition to fighting and other intangibles.

It's not bias, it's just keeping it real. Iginla is not a 38 year old Brett Hull right now. That's ridiculous.

Jeez, "ridiculous?" C'mon. You lose credibility when you say things like that.

Hull in his last 5 years with the Blues and years with the Stars actually scored more goals per game and almost as many points as Jarome has. Mind you, that was in the era of low scoring clutch and grab NHL. The plus-minus numbers are very similar.

Iginla... "fighting and other intangibles." Really? Iginla is a pure one-way player. In fact, I'd say towards the end both Quenneville and Hitchcock coaxed more back checking out of Hull than you've seen out of Iginla since 06.

I'm saying this out of watching a LOT of games of both players. Iginla was an epic player... Only 2 jerseys I've ever bought are #2 and #12. But I'm not a blind fanboy. For the past 5 years or so? Jarome is a sniper... That's about it.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by simmonjam1

So Iginla will be traded to a contender; win a cup then resign with Calgary in 2013/2014 to finish his career.

That possibility is certainly still available based on Feaster's comments.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by 2macinnis2

Jeez, "ridiculous?" C'mon. You lose credibility when you say things like that.

Hull in his last 5 years with the Blues and years with the Stars actually scored more goals per game and almost as many points as Jarome has. Mind you, that was in the era of low scoring clutch and grab NHL. The plus-minus numbers are very similar.

Iginla... "fighting and other intangibles." Really? Iginla is a pure one-way player. In fact, I'd say towards the end both Quenneville and Hitchcock coaxed more back checking out of Hull than you've seen out of Iginla since 06.

I'm saying this out of watching a LOT of games of both players. Iginla was an epic player... Only 2 jerseys I've ever bought are #2 and #12. But I'm not a blind fanboy. For the past 5 years or so? Jarome is a sniper... That's about it.

Perhaps on your NHL11 game play.

In the last 5 years, Iginla won the Messier Award for being the best leader in hockey.

You can keep repeating your opinion over and over, but volume does not make it true. Any statement that Iginla is nothing more than a sniper is completely off base.

[2macinnis2]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Perhaps on your NHL11 game play.

In the last 5 years, Iginla won the Messier Award for being the best leader in hockey.

You can keep repeating your opinion over and over, but volume does not make it true. Any statement that Iginla is nothing more than a sniper is completely off base.

What has he lead the team to in the last 5 years?

Playoff success?

What does he do other than score?

Is he a tenacious hitter? Outstanding in his own end? Big time playmaker? Does he win most of the important one on one battles along the boards?

Give me some hard examples. What has Iginla done for the Flames outside of scoring goals. I'm not saying goal scoring isn't important (again, see my Hull example), but outside of scoring, especially with such a poor plus minus, please explain how he's been critical for our "success."

[2macinnis2]

Doing something I know people love around here... digging up an old thread.

I'm doing this because so many of the complaints around here have centered on Feaster not getting fair market return for Iginla and Bouwmeester. I'm not going to argue in favor of all of his trades, and I don't blame CP from being sensitive on the topic when we've been disappointed on returns on Phaneuf/Regehr before, but I do want to address those two recent deals in particular, and these old posts (at least of mine) I think do a lot to defend Feaster.

First off: a huge distinction to be made in the recent deals is that they were open bidding wars (unlike the Phaneuf trade, for instance). In these circumstances, any GM who argues the Flames did poorly on their return simply needed to offer more to get a deal done. Now, the NTC and NMCs play a role here, and for that you also do need to give Feaster some benefit-of-doubt on return.

More importantly, I want to go in more detail on the quality of the players dealt here. I really do appreciate what Iginla did in his 16 years here, but really most importantly what he did in 2004. His play in that playoff was probably the most dominant we'll ever see a Flames player in that critical of a situation in the playoff setting. But, as I've said over and over again, for the past at least 5 years, Iginla hasn't been much more than a sniper. Ever since he lost the weight after the lockout (preparing for the faster new NHL), his quality of overall play suffered dramatically. Jarome has been on a steady decline for a long time now. Now, he's still a pretty decent sniper, who may even get hot in the playoffs and score a couple important goals, but remember that is something even Camalleri was capable of recently. I still liken him to Brett Hull at age ~32+. A truly one-dimensional, one-way player... but in Jarome's case a much more likeable guy. In the end, since 2004, Iginla did very little to really lead the Flames. He's a smart guy: he figured out that he'd last a lot longer (and be much healthier) playing a clean speed game rather than a dirty power game. For the Flames, this was a shame, for his usefulness and value as a player was never close to the same. Iginla should have been the next Mark Messier... but don't fool yourself... Iginla, after 2004, was never even close.

Perhaps if the Flames dealt him 2-3 years ago the return would have been much greater, but look at even now how demoralizing the trade of the franchise's face can be. That team was more competitive, and even though I don't think Iginla has been all that good for a long time, I don't fault the Flames for holding on to him a little too long. Only one team wins the championship every year, that cannot be the only measuring stick, so there's a lot to say for sentimental value of sports heroes, etc, and what they mean to cities and franchises.

Bouwmeester, anyone who has watched closely knows isn't a very good hockey player. I was listening to NHL radio this AM on my drive to work and they were actually very surprised such a disappointing player could return a 1st round pick. They were equally puzzled by the Blues willingness to take on his contract... one even suggested they could flip him this summer if he fizzles the rest of the year. Again, this was a relatively open bidding war. If another team wanted to pony up more than St Louis, being ignorant he was on the block certainly wouldn't be an excuse.

Overall, I am happy to have multiple 1sts in a good draft. It's obviously a big time of transition, but we've seen young and hungry teams do well without being loaded with talent in recent years. I think this team in the long haul is better for being without the post-lockout Iginla as their leader. I'm not sold on Feaster, I just think the smaller returns on his sales reflect more the market's understanding of his merchandise value than him not being a better salesman.

[schteve_d]

Assumed that was recent.

Rude.

[trublmaker]

really...bumping a 2 year old thread

[2macinnis2]

So sorry guys, didn't realize the thread title when I bumped it. Was solely meant to be a discussion of the value of Iginla's play over the past couple years...