CMA Versus CA

[TheBeanCounter]

Personally I feel bad about the merger too. After all these costly campaigns against granting public practice rights for CMAs and CGAs in Quebec and Ontario why do we have to support unification now? The fact is, things have changed drastically over the last 4 or 5 years.

When I joined the financial services industry about 20 years ago most of the senior finance jobs (CFO, VP etc) were held by CAs. At that time the next tier (managers, directors, AVPs etc) below the senior levels were also held by CAs. 20 years later, I still see the senior jobs being monopolized by CAs, however, the next level is mostly held by CGAs and CMAs now. It is just a matter of time before they move up the ladder as they gain more experience.

What really happened was, CMA and CGA programs have improved a fair bit over the years. Plus, most of the CGAs and CMAs you meet at the senior levels have MBAs or other credentials such as CFA in addition to their designations. (I believe CMAs and CGAs have arrangements with universities for MBA programs and a lot of their members are taking advantage of it. We, on the other hand, are in our comfort zones taking pride of our articleship.)

At the same time, in two of the largest provinces, Ontario and Quebec, we lost the fight to keep CMAs and CGAs off public practice. (My understanding is that CMAs still don't have the right to issue public practice licenses in Ontario yet.) The Ontario leadership made a strategic blunder to prosecute a CGA who did someone's tax filing! The next few years CGAs spent enormous amounts of money and effort to lobby Ontario politicians to change the licensing regime. Clearly they won. Look at the price we are paying for our leaders' arrogance, shortsightedness and overconfidence!

This doesn't mean the merger will go through. Young CAs in Ontario have taken up the fight in earnest. You can see their passion here:

http://www.facebook.com/groups/158690004197791/

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/...ignatures.html

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by TheBeanCounter

This doesn't mean the merger will go through. Young CAs in Ontario have taken up the fight in earnest.

Of course, younger CAs are the passionate ones here. The reality is that no doubt CA are harder to get but after a certain level, what you learned in CA/CGA/CMA ceased mattering.

Between a CA with no O&G experience and a CGA/CMA with O&G experience, the one with O&G expereience will get hired first for an O&G job.

And the higher you move up, the less knowledge matters. How many CFOs know the difference between all these IAS rules?

Some companies like Nexen, Telus and some banks I think are starting to become CA training offices where the fresh grads are working 37.5 hours a week, make 30% more than in the big 4 plus bonus and stock option. What are the CAs going to do about these CAs coming out of these cushy jobs?

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by darklord700

Of course, younger CAs are the passionate ones here. The reality is that no doubt CA are harder to get but after a certain level, what you learned in CA/CGA/CMA ceased mattering.

Between a CA with no O&G experience and a CGA/CMA with O&G experience, the one with O&G expereience will get hired first for an O&G job.

And the higher you move up, the less knowledge matters. How many CFOs know the difference between all these IAS rules?

Some companies like Nexen, Telus and some banks I think are starting to become CA training offices where the fresh grads are working 37.5 hours a week, make 30% more than in the big 4 plus bonus and stock option. What are the CAs going to do about these CAs coming out of these cushy jobs?

The bolded statement above is exactly why I don't want these other designations merging; any CFO at a "real" company had better know each and every applicable IAS/IFRS that impacts their company or they're gonna get themselves in a heap of problems.

Sure, I don't know the exact ins and outs of each and every line of each IFRS standard, but I sure as heck know all those that might relate to the company's I'm involved in; as well as those that could impact them. CMAs/CGAs just don't get the exposure (forced (CASB/UFE) and real world) to the technical aspects enough.

I'm not 100% on exactly how the industry CA training offices work (Telus, etc) but I believe there are some pretty decent restrictions and issues that come along with it. They're not really getting the same exposure to various issues/clients like Big4 firms, but if CICA deems them to be getting enough training, then that's fine by me, they still have to get through CASB and the UFE like the rest of us (out West).

[THE SCUD]

Originally Posted by darklord700

Of course, younger CAs are the passionate ones here. The reality is that no doubt CA are harder to get but after a certain level, what you learned in CA/CGA/CMA ceased mattering.

The above is why CGA's / CMA's should never be allowed to merge. It always matters. The training you get as a CA is unparalleled anywhere.

You might as well say "The reality is that no doubt BSc (Med) are harder to get but after a certain level, what you learned as A Doctor (CA)/Nurse(CMA)/Orderly(CGA) ceased mattering."

[TheBeanCounter]

Originally Posted by THE SCUD

The above is why CGA's / CMA's should never be allowed to merge. It always matters. The training you get as a CA is unparalleled anywhere.

You might as well say "The reality is that no doubt BSc (Med) are harder to get but after a certain level, what you learned as A Doctor (CA)/Nurse(CMA)/Orderly(CGA) ceased mattering."

I guess our approach is, if we ignore the problem, it may go away.
However, we are having difficulty attracting new students, our share of the good jobs is declining, our grip is loosening with the adoption of IFRS and other bodies getting access to public practice. I think we have rested on our laurels too long, taking false pride that we are "doctors" and others are "nurses and orderlies". I think something needs to be done. Not sure if the answer is a merger or something else.

[darklord700]

Many years ago, you can raise a family on high school diploma, then you need a degree and then you need a degree plus professional designation. The world has since moved past the stage where you can make a good living based on education alone. I think that's the delimma CAs are facing.

Outside of public practice, the training provided by CGA/CMA are more than adequate for most companies. Most of the analysis jobs out there only require you to be able to extrac data from SAP/Orcale and then compile some reports. I would say you don't even need CGA/CMA to do those jobs. Moving up the ladder, the technical expertise required to suceed is even less, you just need to be a leader and communicator. Most CFOs couldn't tell IFRS from CGAAP because they don't need to, they have their minions of CA/CGA/CMA to do it for them.

I can see why the younger CAs are the ones vehemently opposing this. After all, no one wants to work hard with no reward. But the truth is, CA vs CGA/CMA are like Mercedes vs Audi and not Mercedes vs Lada.

[Kybosh]

CA is the smuggiest designation.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

CA is the smuggiest designation.

Really? How can you tell?

Originally Posted by Ducay

As someone in this field; I can tell you that essentially no CA's see it as a good idea, regardless of how close to retirement they are. Every CA worked towards their designation and put in hundreds of times more work and time towards their letters than a CMA/CGA did. The amount of work involved is not even within comparison. If the merger does happen I'd love to have the CMAs/CGAs required to pass some form of qualification exam that doesn't involve multiple choice or group presentations (what a joke) before they can use the CPA designation. Sure, full "merger" of the two wouldn't be for 10 years, but if we're talking the life of a career, that is a pretty big impact if you're going to go from X amount of CA's to 10x as many CPAs in 10 years.

Originally Posted by THE SCUD

And we will all be dumber for it.

Seriously.

CGA < CMA < CA

in general terms.

Now all of a sudden they are all in one pot? This will make hiring a lot harder, hopefully they keep the requirement for CPA-CA or what have you. I like being able to source a CMA or CA for my staffing needs based on the letters behind the name, not having to read in detail what their work history is to glean an insight into their stream into CPA.

Originally Posted by Ducay

So we give ourselves more clout by bringing a ton more members that essentially dilute the prestige of our designation? Get real.

You think execs/boards will think the same of CPAs when every kid and his dog has one? Just because the CMAs/CGAs (CGAs moreso) have lax entry/designation criteria and can churn out members doesn't make them any more knowledgeable. They're the Russian army of the accounting world; just using sheer numbers to attack; but with only 1 of 5 soldiers actually getting a rifle.

Originally Posted by Ducay

I guarantee you if it went to a vote; you'd see infinitely higher acceptance rates among CMAs/CGAs, and why not? They're getting a Porsche designation at a Chevy pricetag, there is nothing but upside for them and I don't blame them at all for it.

Originally Posted by THE SCUD

Most of us believe it is, hence the huge backlash against the merger. CMA's care about allocations and CGAs care about personal taxes. Neither of them are going to attempt to sway anything bigger than a CAPPA meeting.

Originally Posted by Ducay

The bolded statement above is exactly why I don't want these other designations merging; any CFO at a "real" company had better know each and every applicable IAS/IFRS that impacts their company or they're gonna get themselves in a heap of problems.

Sure, I don't know the exact ins and outs of each and every line of each IFRS standard, but I sure as heck know all those that might relate to the company's I'm involved in; as well as those that could impact them. CMAs/CGAs just don't get the exposure (forced (CASB/UFE) and real world) to the technical aspects enough.

Originally Posted by THE SCUD

The above is why CGA's / CMA's should never be allowed to merge. It always matters. The training you get as a CA is unparalleled anywhere.

You might as well say "The reality is that no doubt BSc (Med) are harder to get but after a certain level, what you learned as A Doctor (CA)/Nurse(CMA)/Orderly(CGA) ceased mattering."

[Kybosh]

As much as I'd like to base my opinion solely on this thread, my day to day work experience with all levels of CAs is my metric.

Also, I don't just mean the smuggiest of the accounting designations either.

[THE SCUD]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

As much as I'd like to base my opinion solely on this thread, my day to day work experience with all levels of CAs is my metric.

Also, I don't just mean the smuggiest of the accounting designations either.

Un-designated jealousy

[THE SCUD]

Originally Posted by darklord700

I can see why the younger CAs are the ones vehemently opposing this. After all, no one wants to work hard with no reward. But the truth is, CA vs CGA/CMA are like Mercedes vs Audi and not Mercedes vs Lada.

If that were true, CGA's average salary wouldn't be 1/2 that of a CA's.

[Olao32]

Originally Posted by darklord700

But the truth is, CA vs CGA/CMA are like Mercedes vs Audi and not Mercedes vs Lada.

Intriguing... Perhaps, you are either misguided, or uninformed. Either way, if you put in 10X the work of a counter party, then one day an officiating body you apparently vote in to “represent” your voter ship decides to merge you and this counter-party, you may be a little put off too.

Not only is the competency level of a CA vastly superior out of the gate, and the dedication to their profession stronger than the average comparative; the level of employment opportunities it presents once designated are completely different.

Comparing and merging the designations will only serve to dilute the validity of one, and prop up the perception of the others. I say this from experience from working in the United States where a CPA means next to nothing. Stepping stone perhaps, but the level of knowledge from one CPA to the other is vast. I have met great, and also next to useless CPA’s which is what the merger in Canada will produce. Now don’t get me wrong, I have met some pretty lazy CA’s. But do you know what you will get when you hire a CA 9/10? A person you know has worked crazy hours, put in countless hours of study time, and someone who will take that background and apply it to your needs on a personal or corporate level. Not someone who has worked a 9-4:30 in an industry position (or less), completing a less than grueling educational program, and NOT taking one of the most intense professional examinations in the world.

Let the industry decide what they want, and they have…CA’s are in the front running (CFO/Controller positions compared to CMA/CGA in the managerial/support level). There is a reason.

[TheBeanCounter]

The truth is, I am yet to find a CA who supports the merger. As we see in this forum members are very vocal about this issue. At the same time our boards who are supposed to have a bird's eye view of the accounting landscape is proposing this merger. They are even trying to bypass a member vote on this issue. When we consider the fact that just a few years ago a similar proposal was killed due to stiff member opposition you would assume the board would do their homework before they try to sell us this old wine in a new bottle.

So, what is going on? Board knows something that we don't know? Or are we, members, just living in a fools paradise without realizing that the ground is shifting under our feet? Does it matter to be the largest accounting body in Canada or what matters is the most valuable brand?

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by TheBeanCounter

The truth is, I am yet to find a CA who supports merger. As we see in this forum members are very vocal about this issue. At the same time our boards who are supposed to have a birds eye view of the situation is proposing a merger. They are even trying to bypass a member vote on this issue. When we consider the fact that just a few years ago a similar proposal was killed due to member opposition you would assume they would do their homework before they try to sell us this old wine in a new bottle. So, what is going on? Board knows something that we don't know? Or are we, members, just living in a fools paradise without realizing that the ground is shifting under our feet?

I am definitely an outsider looking in on this situation, but the CAs I've worked with seem to be either in support or at least receptive to this merger when they have about 10 years or more working experience with their designation. Almost all of the newly designated and students are flat out against it.

[eddly]

I just wrote the UFE this past September (results to come December 2). As a CA student, my main concern is being able to get a return on the expensive investment I have made thus far. I want to be able to pay off my student loans and provide for my wife and three children.

I'm not naive, I realize there are many smart CGAs and CMAs out there. I decided to pursue the CA designation as it is the hardest to obtain and the most prestigious (at least that is what I was told).

One of my biggest concerns with the merger is the fact that students have no say. I understand why, obviously students are not yet members. But consider this, I have already invested 5 years to complete my business degree and 3 years to complete my CA articling requirements and my time with CASB - I think I have done enough for at least my concerns to be heard. I started this whole nightmare to get the CA, not to get a diluted designation.

There is a reason why the number of CAs is not increasing at the same rate as CGAs and CMAs. Here in BC, for the past few years there have been 1,000+ students who tried to land articling positions who were not able to. What would you expect them to do? There just isn't enough positions to go around. The majority move on to obtain a CGA or CMA designation.

The CASB program that we have to do in the West is demanding and time consuming. I've had quite a few friends that have had to drop out of CASB - and again have moved on to the CGA designation or something else entirely. With CASB there is a significant time constraint when writing exams - you are generally not able to provide the perfect answer and you also have to figure out what the question actually is.

Of course if I was 40+ I wouldn't really care about the merger, my career would be established already and I would rely on the work experience that I had. A fresh CA needs to initially depend on the designation to an extent until he/she has developed experience outside of a public accounting firm.

[TheBeanCounter]

Originally Posted by eddly

One of my biggest concerns with the merger is the fact that students have no say. I understand why, obviously students are not yet members. But consider this, I have already invested 5 years to complete my business degree and 3 years to complete my CA articling requirements and my time with CASB - I think I have done enough for at least my concerns to be heard. I started this whole nightmare to get the CA, not to get a diluted designation.

Don't feel bad - even members may not have a say in this whole thing.

[eddly]

Originally Posted by TheBeanCounter

Don't feel bad - even members may not have a say in this whole thing.

Unfortunately you are probably right - here is an interesting internal email (they accidently replied all to someone who was complaining to them about the merger):

From: Heather.Whyte@cica.ca [mailto:Heather.Whyte@cica.ca]
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 06:40 AM
To: name removed
Cc: 'William MacKinnon' <bmackinnon@rogers.com>; 'Kevin.Dancey@cica.ca' <Kevin.Dancey@cica.ca>; 'Peter.McLean@cica.ca' <Peter.McLean@cica.ca>
Subject: RE: FW: CA-CMA Merger: Important Message to all CAs

Hi Kevin ... let me take this one. you have more important things to do.

I will call her and calm her by providing clarity on the process and feedback, etc. if you like. I think it may be best to let her vent and feel heard.
also i will ask shane to track her email and let us know the status.

H

PM me if you want the entire email exchange.

[TheBeanCounter]

Wow!

You may want to let Ricky & team know. They are struggling to get someone to listen. This will give them some momentum. Here is their link:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/158690004197791/

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by fotze

Accountants, the only group of people who can make engineers look cool.

Also, I thought appega were dicks, looks like your is way worse.

Yeah. My wife works in audit with KPMG here in Shanghai. Her colleagues are nice enough people, but my god are they uninteresting.

[V]

Originally Posted by fotze

Accountants, the only group of people who can make engineers look cool.

Also, I thought appega were dicks, looks like your is way worse.

At least they know how to spell their governing body. Good lord.