#occupy<insertlocalehere>

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

The agricultural demands are nearing Khmer Rouge levels of uninformed fanaticism.

Step 1: Stop domestic oil and gas exploration (Oil Sands, anything with hydraulic stimulation and offshore drilling - this is pretty much the entire industry). Shut down forestry and nuclear industries. Stop export of same.
Step 2: Ban GMO crops, fish farming, feed lots, factory farming (for those keeping track, this accounts for the vast majority of the Canadian agricultural output). Ban fertilizers and pesticides.
Step 3: Make it easier to farm hemp
Step 4: ????
Step 5: Nirvana

With next to no industrial production, no agricultural production and maybe a third of Canadians out of work right away, I'm not sure there'd be much left to raise the minimum wage, EI and disability payments up to what they deem a living wage.

Yup, it's always been part of the socialist dream to move people out of industry and back to the rural farms. Unfortunately, most of the people pushing this agenda are spoiled college kids who would not fare well if their own lives depended on the fruits of their manual labour.

For many of them, their ultimate goal is to have other people provide them with sustainance while they produce mediocre art that nobody wants to buy. I always find it ironic that many of the people who push socialist values the hardest are the least likely to contribute to a socialist society in any meaningful way.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

The agricultural demands are nearing Khmer Rouge levels of uninformed fanaticism.

Step 1: Stop domestic oil and gas exploration (Oil Sands, anything with hydraulic stimulation and offshore drilling - this is pretty much the entire industry). Shut down forestry and nuclear industries. Stop export of same.
Step 2: Ban GMO crops, fish farming, feed lots, factory farming (for those keeping track, this accounts for the vast majority of the Canadian agricultural output). Ban fertilizers and pesticides.
Step 3: Make it easier to farm hemp
Step 4: ????
Step 5: Nirvana

With next to no industrial production, no agricultural production and maybe a third of Canadians out of work right away, I'm not sure there'd be much left to raise the minimum wage, EI and disability payments up to what they deem a living wage.

Someone's an admirer of Pol Pot

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by blankall

Yup, it's always been part of the socialist dream to move people out of industry and back to the rural farms. Unfortunately, most of the people pushing this agenda are spoiled college kids who would not fare well if their own lives depended on the fruits of their manual labour.

For many of them, their ultimate goal is to have other people provide them with sustainance while they produce mediocre art that nobody wants to buy. I always find it ironic that many of the people who push socialist values the hardest are the least likely to contribute to a socialist society in any meaningful way.

The first paragraph really describes the radical version of agricultural Communism that was popularized in Cambodia. Everyone farms, you eat if you farm enough.

What people don't realize is that for that system to work then you have to eliminate anything but rudementary education, I mean whats the point? You don't need a degree to farm.

Its funny with the art concept because the most subtle protests in the Soviet Union against Communism were pushed through poetry. The Soviets took a great deal of pride in art and sports and music not because it somehow served the Soviet State, but because it salved a national inferiority complex.

In true Agricultural Communism or Socialism there are no artists, there are only farmers, government workers or soldiers to enforce the rule of law.

[Devils'Advocate]

(1) People are discussing this list of "demands" as they are some official document put forth by #occupy leaders. I have twice asked for what Wiki or facebook page or anything that shows these to be the official list of demands. I would like to see where these are coming from.

(2) As for supporting the protest goals, but not the protesters, this thread seems to be going in circles. Like I said before, many people are scraping by and have to work long hours to put food on the table and don't have the resources to protest on their own behalf. Those that are protesting are typically those that don't have jobs, either because they are under-educated or have other issues making them difficult to employee (drug issues, psychological issues, etc). Typically, this means they are not going to put a good face on the movement. In other words, many of the 99% agree with the goals, but those standing up for us are doing a dis-service to those goals.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

(1) People are discussing this list of "demands" as they are some official document put forth by #occupy leaders. I have twice asked for what Wiki or facebook page or anything that shows these to be the official list of demands. I would like to see where these are coming from.

(2) As for supporting the protest goals, but not the protesters, this thread seems to be going in circles. Like I said before, many people are scraping by and have to work long hours to put food on the table and don't have the resources to protest on their own behalf. Those that are protesting are typically those that don't have jobs, either because they are under-educated or have other issues making them difficult to employee (drug issues, psychological issues, etc). Typically, this means they are not going to put a good face on the movement. In other words, many of the 99% agree with the goals, but those standing up for us are doing a dis-service to those goals.

Yes, that's the point that people are making. Good points are getting turned into a laughing stock because they're being delivered by idiots.

I don't see how this thread is going in circles on that at all. Most of us think these protesters are idiots. Most of us seem to think that there is a legitimate need for reforms. Most of us seem to think that the presence of the former is harming the ability to achieve the latter. Where's the circle?

[THE SCUD]

Originally Posted by valo403

Yes, that's the point that people are making. Good points are getting turned into a laughing stock because they're being delivered by idiots.

I don't see how this thread is going in circles on that at all. Most of us think these protesters are idiots. Most of us seem to think that there is a legitimate need for reforms. Most of us seem to think that the presence of the former is harming the ability to achieve the latter. Where's the circle?

I want to have your baby. Your ability to dissemination the truth in a concise matter is most noteworthy.

coles notes: +1 to this post.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by THE SCUD

I want to have your baby. Your ability to dissemination the truth in a concise matter is most noteworthy.

coles notes: +1 to this post.

Well it DID take him 30 pages to do so.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by OffsideSpecialist

Most Canadians support Occupy Movement

I think that these protesters do have a legitimate point, but the fact that they can't seem to keep control of themselves (see drug overdoses in Vancouver and stories of attacks above) really makes me think less of the protesters.

Glad to see the majority of people support the protests, and only 33% think unfavorably of them. Although a good portion of that 33% sure love to trash and bash in this thread

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Glad to see the majority of people support the protests, and only 33% think unfavorably of them. Although a good portion of that 33% sure love to trash and bash in this thread

The support of the ignorant is a powerful thing (just ask our elected politicians), but it is important to note that people are always supportive of a general "make the people who aren't me, but make more than me pay more!" agenda. That support is easily maintainable so long as the protests don't interfere with the common man's day, and so long as their demands wont negatively impact the common man's way of life.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The support of the ignorant is a powerful thing (just ask our elected politicians), but it is important to note that people are always supportive of a general "make the people who aren't me, but make more than me pay more!" agenda. That support is easily maintainable so long as the protests don't interfere with the common man's day, and so long as their demands wont negatively impact the common man's way of life.

You're calling 58% to 67% of people ignorant because they support the protests?

I'm sure you could find at least one person in that number who isn't a left-wing, poor, student petchuli-smelling hippie with communism on the brain.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

You're calling 58% to 67% of people ignorant because they support the protests?

I'm sure you could find at least one person in that number who isn't a left-wing, poor, student petchuli-smelling hippie with communism on the brain.

No, I think that number (and it is low) is ignorant, period, and it has nothing to do with where you sit on the political compass or personal hygene scale.

The point is that majority support is easy as long as people think that the point is to make someone else foot the bill.

But consider the "shut down all oil production" demand from some parts of the supposed 99%? Tell the average person that the cost to fuel their car will double as a result, and support would plummet.

[puckluck]

Originally Posted by valo403

Yes, that's the point that people are making. Good points are getting turned into a laughing stock because they're being delivered by idiots.

I don't see how this thread is going in circles on that at all. Most of us think these protesters are idiots. Most of us seem to think that there is a legitimate need for reforms. Most of us seem to think that the presence of the former is harming the ability to achieve the latter. Where's the circle?

I love how you are sitting behind a computer screen calling people idiots.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

But consider the "shut down all oil production" demand from some parts of the supposed 99%? Tell the average person that the cost to fuel their car will double as a result, and support would plummet.

I think most people are reasonable enough to know that, while this demand is ridiculous, the underlying message of environmental concern regarding oil production is clear and ever-present. I don't think that part is lost on anybody.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by puckluck

I love how you are sitting behind a computer screen calling people idiots.

Oh we're playing the follow me around the forum game are we? Aren't you a cute little goofball.

And for the record, I've made the point that I think these people are idiots in person as well.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I think most people are reasonable enough to know that, while this demand is ridiculous, the underlying message of environmental concern regarding oil production is clear and ever-present. I don't think that part is lost on anybody.

I think the issue is that the underlying message of environmental concern is being turned into an extremist 'end all oil production' mantra. A rationale message is being co-opted by those at the fringes. That's the entire issue with this protest, they claim to be the voice of the 99% but the only voices being heard are those of the extremist elements. I'm part of the 99% and these people sure as hell don't speak for me.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by valo403

I think the issue is that the underlying message of environmental concern is being turned into an extremist 'end all oil production' mantra. A rationale message is being co-opted by those at the fringes. That's the entire issue with this protest, they claim to be the voice of the 99% but the only voices being heard are those of the extremist elements. I'm part of the 99% and these people sure as hell don't speak for me.

It's being spun that way currently, and that message has always been there in some obscure form or another (Encana attacks are Weibo's bombings are two that come to mind for hitting close to home), but most any protests against big oil has environmental concerns. That will never go away - and I doubt the 99% (or more accurately the 58% who support it) think its about ending oil production completely. I don't think anyone is that stupid to let fringe voices warp the whole message, protests now or in the future.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

But consider the "shut down all oil production" demand from some parts of the supposed 99%? Tell the average person that the cost to fuel their car will double as a result, and support would plummet.

Because some crazy extremist view is held by a fraction of people involved in the #occupy movement, we can obviously discredit everything that anyone in the movement stands for?

Again, if someone shows me where that list of demands comes from and that it comes from the organizers of the protest movement, I'll gladly eat my words. Until then, I believe people are grasping at the most extreme stances to tar and feather those who want even moderate reform.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

It's being spun that way currently, and that message has always been there in some obscure form or another (Encana attacks are Weibo's bombings are two that come to mind for hitting close to home), but most any protests against big oil has environmental concerns. That will never go away - and I doubt the 99% (or more accurately the 58% who support it) think its about ending oil production completely. I don't think anyone is that stupid to let fringe voices warp the whole message, protests now or in the future.

Really, because that's exactly what's happening with this protest.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Because some crazy extremist view is held by a fraction of people involved in the #occupy movement, we can obviously discredit everything that anyone in the movement stands for?

Again, if someone shows me where that list of demands comes from and that it comes from the organizers of the protest movement, I'll gladly eat my words. Until then, I believe people are grasping at the most extreme stances to tar and feather those who want even moderate reform.

And who would those people be? I thought the whole point was that there was no organization or formal structure.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by valo403

Really, because that's exactly what's happening with this protest.

99% of people are now believing extreme views such as getting rid of oil production?

That's tin foil hat worthy.