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Old 10-19-2011, 02:49 PM   #61
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Alberta gets 38% of its electricity from natural gas at this point.

http://www.energy.alberta.ca/Electricity/682.asp
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Old 10-19-2011, 03:42 PM   #62
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There's so many incredible subsidies to the nuclear industry that aren't accounted for in the levelized price. First just look at the billions of dollars that went into AECL, which the government then sold for $130 million. Worst investment ever. Second, if nuclear operators are so competitive why can't they buy insurance? No insurance company in the world will insure a nuclear facility. So those costs are socialized to the taxpayer. Nuclear operators also usually get sweetened land and water rentals to build the economic case. And the final disposal is not the utility's problem. THe final disposal is also one of the most costly steps of using nuclear power. No matter which way you slice it, nuclear is incredibly expensive once you really start looking at all the implicit subsidies they receive.
Wouldn't some of that willingness to subsidize the program you're referring to (AECL) come from the notion that it probably gave Canada other political benefits that (like them or not) were part of the equation that justified such expense? Also, what cost data are you referring to? I would really like to see the levelized cost data you're talking about. The stuff I've seen puts the cost of nuclear around $0.12/kWh and makes it quite competitive in the "alternative" space. I'm actually sitting in on a seminar that will discuss the costs of modular nuclear designs this week that should be pretty informative.

Besides, you're referring to a technology that is fundamentally different from the reactors I am talking about. The molten salt reactors operate at atmospheric pressures and will most likely use a Thorium-Uranium fuel cycle as opposed to the Uranium-Plutonium fuel cycle. The interesting thing about the Thorium-Uranium fuel cycle is that it can actually recycle the actinide wastes that are the nasty part of the nuclear waste stream (i.e. burn existing waste up) - and after a few hundred years the thorium cycle based waste can be less toxic than uranium ore that typically gets used to create low enriched uranium for a light water reactor that uses the Uranium-Plutonium cycle to produce an equivalent amount of power.

My point on this is that the waste production and handling challenges of a thorium based cycle will be different and likley less severe in manitude and duration than what we currently deal with.

At our level of science, there is no energy source that is truly perfect, but I think the trade offs related with the LFTR design are worth pursuing in a big way.
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Old 10-19-2011, 03:43 PM   #63
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Alberta gets 38% of its electricity from natural gas at this point.

http://www.energy.alberta.ca/Electricity/682.asp
and 46% from Coal... ugly.
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:06 AM   #64
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Fortunately not everyone is endowed with your logic skills and lack of historical perspective.




BUT BUT

Henry FORD was given 17 billion dollars to run his factory by Obama......oh I am sorry he wasn't.

Ingenuity took the day. Go figure.



How about we read history Rouge. Start HERE
This doesn't make any sense at all.
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:27 AM   #65
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Problem with the molten salt reactors at this time is FLiBe purity..I don't know a heck of a lot about the molten salt reactors but most seem to be leaning towards FLiBe as the coolant. Purity in terms of general purity but also the isotopic purity of the Lithium. It needs to be 99.995+% Li-7 as Li-6 is a neutron absorber. That is a tremendous purity level to achieve.

The problem is a combo of a few things...at least for the US (and most other countries):

1) Past process in the US used partioning into liquid mercury. Yes mercury. That site is one horrendous mess and the process is outlawed.

2) that process was never really used to reach that isotopic purity so there are no stockpiles of material (mercury process can only reach 99.9%)

3) the process is government controlled as the real reason for Li enrichment is for the Li-6 which is used in triggers for nuclear weapons.

4) the US government and other governments no longer actively enriches lithium and they have NO interest in doing so again.

5)Li-6 is the byproduct and of course a defense controlled item. Logistical hell.

There are believed to be 2 lithium enrichment facilities in the world that use the mercury process. YOu can't get to the purity and it's hard to argue the technology is green as long as the Li is coming from the mercury process. Lots of work still to be done for the molten salt reactors that we will continue to see the PWRs being built for the foreseeable future.
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:46 AM   #66
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That's my understanding as well Ernie. The scientists I've been speaking with on the issue are confident in a few process concepts and just need some R&D budget to work with the concepts to see which is the most efficient and economic in producing the Li-7. The facility being engaged to do this work is in the US.

With the potential benefits of the technology, I don't see why someone wouldn't take serious interest in advancing that effort despite the hurdles you've outlined above... they all seem relatively surmountable given the prize at the end of the road, no?
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:14 PM   #67
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That's my understanding as well Ernie. The scientists I've been speaking with on the issue are confident in a few process concepts and just need some R&D budget to work with the concepts to see which is the most efficient and economic in producing the Li-7. The facility being engaged to do this work is in the US.

With the potential benefits of the technology, I don't see why someone wouldn't take serious interest in advancing that effort despite the hurdles you've outlined above... they all seem relatively surmountable given the prize at the end of the road, no?
Oh it is certainly achievable but trying to line up all the hurdles (national labs, affiliated center, the DOE etc) so you can jump them will take far more time than it ought to. Navigating the DOE and NRC quagmires are not fun.
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