Mainland China has got some issues

[kirant]

Originally Posted by pylon

I do not know where you went, but that completely goes against the mantra of life over limb.

If someone is knocked unconscious in a burning vehicle, are you supposed to let them burn to death? I would have walked straight out of that course if I heard that.

My CPR courses were around the time they made the change.

The intent is to ask IF they want your help IF you can ask them and to not provide assistance if they say no. If you can't, you do everything you can. So in the case of the burning car, you pull them out because they can't say yes or no.

Because many emergency pratices can be dangerous (restarting the heart can require cracking ribs), the intent is over whether or not they think they can handle themselves (for god knows what reason) or if they want medical aid. Kind of silly, but it's where that comes from.

I believe Good Samaritan Laws are in place to reduce hesitation to provide assistance if no formal consent or implied (no, it didn't say implicit before...that's a lie) consent is given.

[MotoRacer]

makes me ill.

places to never visit list.

[hkstylez]

This actually happened about 3 days ago. And yes it is disturbing.

[saskflames69]

I have seen three guys one hammer and the suicide of budd dwyer on the internet before. This is just effed up.

[HOZ]

In my experience traveling to Mainland China this incident is just a good example of the sheer lack of empathy they show towards others and other living things. I never can explain to others what it is. It is as though their humanity has been torn from them. Its not that they don't give a ##### but that it has nothing to do with them so they ignore it.

The same thing happened to the Japanese in WWII. But even that was different. At least they still "cared" for each other.

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

^^^
That is basically what I was trying to preempt, in the hopes that there could be a little more nuanced discussion rather than painting a billion plus with the broad stroke of being inhumane.

Actually JohnnyB this is nuanced. This is a discussion I have had with Koreans, Japanese, Americans, Canadians, Singaporeans, Taiwanese etc.... all of whom have either travelled, worked or lived in PRC.

How do you explain what happened during the aftermath of the Sichuan earthquake? Its not that they don't care but they seem to have an incredible ability to ignore the suffering of others. I have met people who were very loving parents then drive down the street and not care that they just about ran over 3 kids walking across a street.

Now are these types of people elsewhere? Absolutely. Is every single mainland Chinese like this? No. But there is something there in China that simply doesn't exist to the same extreme elsewhere.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by pylon

What does scare me though, is with the growing rate of immigration, would one of those people that walked past that dying child, walk past a dying Canadian? Are we going to start seeing the same indifference in our country, and people protected by the "It is a cultural difference, we let our citizens bleed to death in agony, and it is a hate crime to punish me for it." Knowing our government, I could see it happening.

It's definitely an interesting question. It's my impression that in most countries with large immigrant populations, Chinese immigrants seem to be perceived as fairly non-disruptive to local culture, but could these cultural issues be imported with high enough immigration levels? How strong an influence can changes in environment have on that kind of learned behaviour? There's no doubt that being in China has changed my reactions to a lot of morally conflicting situations based on the values and beliefs of the community I'm in. I would think that people from China and other places would adapt to local values too, given time and real immersion in the community.
I would think the most important factors in preventing the situation you're worried about is just making sure the conditions in Canada are never the kind to pressure people into learning those habits and making sure that cultural values that support taking action to help others are promoted in all sorts of community venues and supported with judicial and legislative decisions.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by HOZ

In my experience traveling to Mainland China this incident is just a good example of the sheer lack of empathy they show towards others and other living things. I never can explain to others what it is. It is as though their humanity has been torn from them. Its not that they don't give a ##### but that it has nothing to do with them so they ignore it.

The same thing happened to the Japanese in WWII. But even that was different. At least they still "cared" for each other.



Actually JohnnyB this is nuanced. This is a discussion I have had with Koreans, Japanese, Americans, Canadians, Singaporeans, Taiwanese etc.... all of whom have either travelled, worked or lived in PRC.

How do you explain what happened during the aftermath of the Sichuan earthquake? Its not that they don't care but they seem to have an incredible ability to ignore the suffering of others. I have met people who were very loving parents then drive down the street and not care that they just about ran over 3 kids walking across a street.

Now are these types of people elsewhere? Absolutely. Is every single mainland Chinese like this? No. But there is something there in China that simply doesn't exist to the same extreme elsewhere.

Actually, whether you have spoken to people with some experience of the PRC or not, I don't see that there is much nuanced about jumping from this incident involving a few people to a statement that the Chinese generally seem to be inhumane without adding more to the conversation. If there is something in China that doesn't exist elsewhere why not join in the real discussion looking for explanations and causes.

Also, there were many acts of generosity, kindness and heroism during and following the Sichuan earthquake.

[hkstylez]

Its good to see she is still alive, but the pain and suffering will be horrid when she grows up.

[GirlySports]

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/ar...-by-truck?bn=1

some key points

“That kind of system dissuades people from helping,” Potter said. “People have been either sued by the family of the injured person or held responsible by local authorities for the harm, and so getting wrapped up in that is something people want to avoid.”

In 2006, a Nanjing man who escorted an elderly woman to the hospital after she broke her leg was ordered to pay 40 per cent of the woman’s medical bill. The rationale: It was inconceivable that the man would go to such lengths to help the woman if he wasn’t somehow responsible for her injury.
“The reasoning of the courts is that if you hadn’t done it, why would you have taken them to the hospital? No normal person would have taken them,” said Donald Clarke, a law professor at George Washington University who maintains a blog on Chinese law.

Some Chinese sources also suggest the van’s driver left the girl to die because compensatory damages for death are often less than for a long-term injury. For the latter, damages might include medical expenses and income compensation for missed-work time over many years. Death involves a one-off payment.
“If she is dead, I may pay only about 20,000 yuan ($3,180),” the van driver told the China Daily before he surrendered to police. “But if she is injured, it may cost me hundreds of thousands of yuan.”

According to Potter, personal liability insurance is also uncommon, meaning it would be financially prudent for a driver to flee an accident.

I'm surprised the driver didn't backup into the girl again, to make sure she died.

[secol]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I'm surprised the driver didn't backup into the girl again, to make sure she died.

actually i have heard of that happening for the reason you quoted

[pylon]

Originally Posted by secol

actually i have heard of that happening for the reason you quoted

It has happened to an old woman. Not hard to find if you really want to see it. Fwd, back, then fwd again.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/ar...-by-truck?bn=1

I'm surprised the driver didn't backup into the girl again, to make sure she died.

At this point, the girl is brain dead. Might as well be dead.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/20...t_13909773.htm

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I'm surprised the driver didn't backup into the girl again, to make sure she died.

That actually looks like what he's trying to do when he slowly goes over her with the back wheels. I mean even if he's too scared to get out of the vehicle and face the music, he still makes no effort to switch his course and avoid her with the second wheel.

Horrific, would have been nice if the OP had summed up the situation before I clicked on links. I clicked the second one first!

I lot of your points are good insights to the mindset of the average person and the system in China. I suspect it's many different problems all in one.

I was actually going to say something similar to what Cow said on page 2, though I'm not sure just saying 'different cultures' is a good enough reason. Even if it would be harder to do the right thing in societies like this you would still hope some would. When you get to levels of indifference like this that's how dictators take over. Of course, one could argue that they are already in that situation. Still, it takes the movement of the populace to change things, and it's never easy to begin with. There were people who stood up to the Nazi's even in Germany.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Actually, whether you have spoken to people with some experience of the PRC or not, I don't see that there is much nuanced about jumping from this incident involving a few people to a statement that the Chinese generally seem to be inhumane without adding more to the conversation. If there is something in China that doesn't exist elsewhere why not join in the real discussion looking for explanations and causes.

Also, there were many acts of generosity, kindness and heroism during and following the Sichuan earthquake.

No there wasn't Johnny. When the cameras were shut out there was far more inhumanity.

You are the one shutting down the discussion. I said," I can't explain it properly" yet have a shared experience with others. We(from varying countries and cultures) agreed that there is "something" that seems makes the people of the PRC lack humanity. Our conclusion.....Beyond their personal sphere they just don't care.

WTF????? ......Still looking for an answer.

[burn_this_city]

Sounds like China is desperate for a Good Samaritan law, preventing frivilous lawsuits against people who try to help.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Actually, whether you have spoken to people with some experience of the PRC or not, I don't see that there is much nuanced about jumping from this incident involving a few people to a statement that the Chinese generally seem to be inhumane without adding more to the conversation. If there is something in China that doesn't exist elsewhere why not join in the real discussion looking for explanations and causes.

Also, there were many acts of generosity, kindness and heroism during and following the Sichuan earthquake.

And more acts of civility in China:

Nearly 1,000 dogs were spared from slaughter in southwest China as animal-rights activists intercepted trucks loaded with "man's best friend" and negotiated their purchase, local officials said Monday.

An Internet user known as "Mosquito" initiated the rescue on Friday via the Twitter-like microblogging site Weibo after learning the dogs would be transported out of the city of Zigong in Sichuan province and taken to slaughterhouses in Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region to be processed for meat.

On Saturday about 200 volunteers blocked the three trucks packed with hundreds of whimpering dogs, and two local animal welfare groups paid the trader 80,000 yuan (12,500 U.S. dollars) for the dogs.

http://english.cri.cn/6909/2011/10/17/2821s663101.htm

This is not the first time this has happened in China . . . its becoming more common as "new" and "old" aspects of their culture clash.

Cowperson

[Zee]

In 2006, a Nanjing man who escorted an elderly woman to the hospital after she broke her leg was ordered to pay 40 per cent of the woman’s medical bill. The rationale: It was inconceivable that the man would go to such lengths to help the woman if he wasn’t somehow responsible for her injury.
“The reasoning of the courts is that if you hadn’t done it, why would you have taken them to the hospital? No normal person would have taken them,” said Donald Clarke, a law professor at George Washington University who maintains a blog on Chinese law.

So this part is a bit disturbing, in China, people just don't help others? WTF!

So then these people just walking past a dying child is normal behavior according to the courts.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by HOZ

No there wasn't Johnny. When the cameras were shut out there was far more inhumanity.

You are the one shutting down the discussion. I said," I can't explain it properly" yet have a shared experience with others. We(from varying countries and cultures) agreed that there is "something" that seems makes the people of the PRC lack humanity. Our conclusion.....Beyond their personal sphere they just don't care.

WTF????? ......Still looking for an answer.

Seriously? Where's the proof with this Sichaun Earthquake inhumanity? While I admit in any disaster zone there are going to be looters and crooks as far as I remember there was a huge outpouring of donations from across China. There were hundreds of volunteer run fundraising events in Shanghai, Beijing and Henan that were not televised at all. I have a friend in China that actually went over with a relief group to help out at the site. This was going months after donations dried up from us North Americans, so don't give me that crap about the people of the PRC lacking humanity when you have a limited view about the situation on the ground.

Yes admittedly there are huge cultural problems caused in part by communism and the cultural revolution. We have been discussing the reasons behind why there are people like that in PRC at length, and the ratio is a lot higher than preferable compared Western countries (though it seems in line with other communist countries) but what you are doing is generalizing a single statement to a large (> 1billion) very ethnically diverse group of people based on the limited observations of the rich spoiled brats that have managed to get out of the country and into the west. That's a huge WTF!

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Sounds like China is desperate for a Good Samaritan law, preventing frivilous lawsuits against people who try to help.

But then that would stamp out corruption. Can't have that.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by HOZ

No there wasn't Johnny. When the cameras were shut out there was far more inhumanity.

You are the one shutting down the discussion. I said," I can't explain it properly" yet have a shared experience with others. We(from varying countries and cultures) agreed that there is "something" that seems makes the people of the PRC lack humanity. Our conclusion.....Beyond their personal sphere they just don't care.

WTF????? ......Still looking for an answer.

There absolutely were great outpourings of generosity, kindness and heroism during and following the aftermath. I was here at the time. I know many people from Sichuan who were directly affected by the earthquake. I also know many people who either individually or through their business contributed to helping people get through that disaster, whether it was donating hundreds of shipping containers for temporary housing, travelling there to help with relief work or organizing and participating in charitable drives. And that is just to name a few of the things people did. Also, basically every company where I knew anyone organized charitable donations from employees and from what I saw there were a lot of large donations considering the income people were getting.
I also recently made friends with a group of guys who are from right next to the epicenter and talked to them about the experience. There is no doubt that people's hearts poured out across the China and that people here acted to help.