Is the Reserve System for Native Peoples Broken?

[bizaro86]

Jammies brought up a point in the "occupy calgary" thread about the reserve system being "aparteid-like." I don't really disagree, but would be interested to hear what others think could replace it. There are some legal issues with respect to treaties and what not, but I'd still be interested in hearing ideas that could work, even theoretically.

[Hack&Lube]

It has been broken since it's inception. Let's work on integration in our modern world. I understand the appeal of the idea of them having their own lands but if one really thinks about it, it's more like segregation.

Calling it apartheid isn't very accurate. They are free to leave the reserves and have all the rights and even more benefits than the rest of us Canadians.

It's a terrible generalization but most people will understand what I mean if I say that the problem is that the reserve system seems to foster a poor culture of education, work ethic, and adjustment to being successful in the rest of Canadian society. Instead, it creates apathy and abuse and little to no economic activity and therefore no increased quality of life.

[Ducay]

Apartheid? You know they're free to live where they like?

There is nothing but upside to the treaties. At best they get free land, etc. At worst they have to live like the rest of us

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Apartheid? You know they're free to live where they like?

There is nothing but upside to the treaties. At best they get free land, etc. At worst they have to live like the rest of us

Well, except for the often vastly higher rates of unemployment, poverty, drug abuse and suicide...

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Apartheid? You know they're free to live where they like?

There is nothing but upside to the treaties. At best they get free land, etc. At worst they have to live like the rest of us

Apartheid was in quotations. It's what Jammies said in post #273 of the occupy calgary thread. He didn't want to debate it there, so I started a new thread.

I think the system is broken, but wouldn't personally use term apartheid.

He said he had some ideas on how to fix it when I said just being against stuff doesn't help. I'd like to hear ideas on fixing the problem from anyone.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Well, except for the often vastly higher rates of unemployment, poverty, drug abuse and suicide...

Yes, the problem is not the reserves themselves but reserve culture just like how slum, inner city, projects, etc. culture might foster many social issues.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Well, except for the often vastly higher rates of unemployment, poverty, drug abuse and suicide...

Right. I don't think anyone thinks the current system is working just fine.

What would you do to change it if you were king for a day? Just boot them off and let them fend for themselves? Give them the land to manage individually and see where they end up? Sell the reserves and divide up the money?

[Coys1882]

- Tear the treaties up
- Force assimilation into society

EVERY civilization has seen itself conquered at some point - the Indian nations should have been treated no differently. It's our own fault for taking them under our wing and providing just enough to wipe out any need for ambition and then cultivating a culture of apathy, alcoholism and abuse.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Right. I don't think anyone thinks the current system is working just fine.

What would you do to change it if you were king for a day? Just boot them off and let them fend for themselves? Give them the land to manage individually and see where they end up? Sell the reserves and divide up the money?

The problem is that the reserves have little to no economic purpose. There might be some farming or rural industry, etc. but without economic purpose, there is no competitive pressure, no increased productivity, etc. and therefore no increase in the quality of life. Without ambition and with apathy, and "free-rides", you get communities that produce nothing and do nothing to advance themselves.

[CaptainCrunch]

To me we throw around terminology like Aparteid way too easily. There is freedom of movement, the natives aren't being denied jobs, or the freedom to travel due to their race, we have natives in leadership positions within the government and for the most part the reserves are self governed.

Does the system work? Absolutely not, its creating a atmosphere of despair and poverty in a lot of cases, but its far too easy to blame the federal government for the system not working.

There is a lot of money flowing into the reservations from the government, I think that the area where it is most broken is within the leadership of the reserves. I think that there has to be some accountability when it comes to where the money is going. In the last year we've heard about chiefs making hundreds of thousands of dollars in salary with a few even making more then the Prime Minister of Canada.

There needs to be a choice made, either there has to be greater oversight from the government on how the money is spend.

Or you negotiate a program where the reservation system goes away, you pay them for the land rights and Oil rights and then work to integrate them into Canadian Society.

One of the dumber aspects of the reservation system is that it both creates a two way blame game where the natives blame the rest of Canada for their woes, and the rest of Canada thinks that the Natives are somehow lazy and their leaders are currupt.

Its time to end the system. We're not asking them to give up their religion or their beliefs, we're asking them to step out of self chosen isolationism.

[jar_e]

I'd say aboriginal people through status and such get a long list of benefits (financial, etc.) than the average Canadian.

I'm pretty sure by definition that's the opposite of apartheid.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

The problem is that the reserves have little to no economic purpose. There might be some farming or rural industry, etc. but without economic purpose, there is no competitive pressure, no increased productivity, etc. and therefore no increase in the quality of life. Without ambition and with apathy, and "free-rides", you get communities that produce nothing and do nothing to advance themselves.

This pretty much nails the economic problem. If you follow Glenmore trail east of the city, you eventually hit the reserve. The landscape changes from productive irrigated farmland to prarie that isn't being used.

[mykalberta]

If aboriginals vote to abolish them so be it - its wholly up to them.

Anything inside the reserve for the most part is self governed, they dont want our interference in what we think is better for them nor should we interfere.

What happens in the reserve is their own doing. If they want to put an eyesore of a casino on the road to Banff, so be it.

[jammies]

There has been a discussion in the past about this very subject, and it provoked some strong reaction against what was seen as the "imposing" of a solution upon the various Native groups. My personal opinion is that, because these groups are represented by people whose direct interests are threatened by ANY change which no longer has room for chiefs and councils, this is unavoidable and the root of the reason why nothing does in fact change.

I think that there is only one long-term way forward: complete abolition of the entire system, conversion of reserves into municipalities, and the ending of any special status for individuals. This will be a huge, painful process, but the thing is that sometimes there is no good solution, only differing bad ones, and this is the only that is likely to be a permanent ending to the problems, though it will doubtless take generations.

The methods involved in doing so are open to debate and refinement, certainly, but there is nothing to suggest that tinkering with the current system can do anything to fix was is and has always been an unworkable set of compromises that strove to protect little isolated cultural islands against the tide of assimilation. The results of this foolishness have been only to institutionalize the prisoners of these reserves so that they are comfortable neither in their cells nor in the alien world outside; the culture of the ghetto replacing or transforming the original cultures intended to be preserved and the inhabitants of that ghetto resentful of their place neither in the world of the past nor the present.

[afc wimbledon]

I can't speak to Alberta, but in BC where I have alot of contact with native society the problem with reserves is they are politically dominated by a few families who do very well, I mean very very very well, they use their power to assign work, housing or even banish band members to ensure they stay in control and eliminate any real debate.

The money the feds send is basically used by a few band council members, generally related to each other, with no oversight or accounting whats so ever.

What would help is if every band member was given a share of the bands money up front from the feds and the band council had to run on a platform of how much they would tax and what they would do with it (as they do in any other municipality).

It would also help if they were all given a plot of land of their own as opposed to community ownership, it could be restricted covanent so as to ensure it stays within the band, but it would, none the less give them some sense of ownership, and even, in a limited way, an asset they might be able to borrow off.

The real problem with the rez system isn't that its apharthied it's that it's a dictatorship.

[opendoor]

The politics of assimilation with regards to the First Nations peoples of Canada has been a complete an abject failure. Various levels of government spent 100+ years in an attempt to force assimilation through residential schools and whatnot and they all failed. Given that, expecting an entire group of marginalized people to assimilate based on the will of the majority or the government is a pipe dream. First Nations people and culture exist and they'll continue to exist. Any solution that doesn't accept that reality is doomed to fail.

As an immigrant society where most peoples' experience has been the exact opposite of that (most people who came to this country assimilated within a generation) it can sometimes be a tough concept to grasp but it's true. Further, we must recognize that there's a fundamental difference between a group of people who willingly left their places of birth to move to Canada to start a new life and a group of people who lived here in self governing societies prior to the Canadian state being thrust upon them. This distinction is a fundamental aspect of the Canadian constitution with regards to French-English rights and relations, and Aboriginal rights must be recognized in the same way. Canada has always allowed for group differentiated rights and that fact is going to continue regardless.

Given that, the solution to this issue isn't really clear, but the only real way to move forward is on the premise of First Nations people having some form of autonomy over areas of land that are large enough for them to live off of. How much land that is, and where it is will be a subject of long debate and negotiation, but to me that's the only realistic way forward. Obviously measures will have to be taken to ensure that the current corruption that exists in the band system will not simply be transposed onto the new one, and that too will be extremely difficult but there are ways to try and avoid that, and some of those options have been brought up here.

The sad fact is, a few generations of abuse can take many more generations to overcome. Expecting First Nations societies to simply wake up and turn themselves into what we want them to be when they've grown up in an environment with entrenched poverty and abuse is asking far too much. It'll take time, it'll take effort, and it'll take will from everyone. But short of ignoring the problem like we've done for the past 50 years, there's really not much else that can be done that'll have any hope of success.

[Flashpoint]

I'd like to hear what the user "Da_Chief" has to say.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

It would also help if they were all given a plot of land of their own as opposed to community ownership, it could be restricted covanent so as to ensure it stays within the band, but it would, none the less give them some sense of ownership, and even, in a limited way, an asset they might be able to borrow off.

I think this is a big part of the problem, but your solution does not work. The reason you are able to borrow against your land is because you are putting up your land as collateral. If you default the lender can force the sale to recoup their losses. If the land has to stay with the band then it can't be used as collateral.

As it stands right now, the federal government holds the land in trust for the band. They are free to use it and develop it as they want to, but they can't sell it to raise money or use it as collateral. They have effectively been given free rent for perpetuity. I think the solution has to involve turning ownership over to the either the band or individual members. (I am thinking of South America and Africa)

There are quite a few case studies where title has been given to the occupants of slums who were previously allowed to squat. The results will invariably have a mixture of positive and negative stories, but the overall trend is towards greater development and a higher standard of living.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

I think this is a big part of the problem, but your solution does not work. The reason you are able to borrow against your land is because you are putting up your land as collateral. If you default the lender can force the sale to recoup their losses. If the land has to stay with the band then it can't be used as collateral.

As it stands right now, the federal government holds the land in trust for the band. They are free to use it and develop it as they want to, but they can't sell it to raise money or use it as collateral. They have effectively been given free rent for perpetuity. I think the solution has to involve turning ownership over to the either the band or individual members. (I am thinking of South America and Africa)

There are quite a few case studies where title has been given to the occupants of slums who were previously allowed to squat. The results will invariably have a mixture of positive and negative stories, but the overall trend is towards greater development and a higher standard of living.

Actually I wasn't thinking of ownership from a strictly capital asset point of view, I am thinking of it more as a way to break the power of the band councils, who right now can and do throw people out of their houses for complaining, I think it would also encourage people to take pride in their property, knowing they can pass it on to their kids etc.

I do think though you could set up a hybrid, strictly native lending system that would enable people to borrow against their house, and allow foreclosure and resale, but strictly within the band, or maybe the greater native population.

[Kybosh]

We should be segregating the pot smoking, patchouli stinking no-goodnick hippies.