Occupy Calgary/Do Not Merge

[macker]

This is not a rebel song, this song is Rejoice


It's falling it's falling
And outside the buildings
Are tumbling down
And inside a child on the ground
Says he'd do it again

And what am I to do
What in the world am I to say
There's nothing else to do
He says he'll change the world someday
I rejoice

This morning I fell out of bed
When I woke up to what he has said
Everything's crazy
But I'm too lazy to lie

And what am I to do
Just tell me what am I supposed to say
I can't change the world
But I can change the world in me
If I rejoice
Rejoice...

And what am I to do
Just tell me what am I supposed to say
I can't change the world
But I can change the world in me
If I rejoice

I don't know what to change
Rejoice...

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Daradon

(What I would ask for)

I can't disagree with a lot of what you've said Cowperson. But I do think without change it will get much worse.

.

I believe I said change is necessary. In fact, its always necessary. Things evolve and the rules of yesterday do not necessarily apply today.

First, change how money works in the electoral system. Change the PAC's and the SUPERPAC's and the corporations used to hide the SUPERPAC donation lists. Make rules on how much can be donated and get rid of all the loopholes all these PAC's represent.

I agree.

Frankly, I'd love to see campaigns extremely limited in their funding but an overabundance of televised (and on radio), moderated debates so the public could hear all of the candidates at once, on the same focussed questions.

It would, in fact, work much like equity markets are supposed to work, everyone fairly learning the same information at the same time in a supervised manner.

It is a free country, however, and candidates should be able to show up anywhere in their districts, put up a pulpit and start preaching.

But how much should that preaching cost? Its an industry unto itself right now and probably not a very healthy one in terms of giving the common man the right to step forward and be a candidate.

Second, tighten up the lobbies. I know, not too much to ask right? I can't really tell you how, but I think most people agree the corporations and special interest groups have far too much say in governance, and more importantly, prevent the representative from acting in the best interests of their constituants(sp). Put regulations again on donations, gifts, etc. and tighten up those loopholes.

I think lobbies require heavy oversight for ethics . . . . . but, corporations really are people too and should have the right to speak their piece.

The answer, if you think your guy or gal is overly influenced by lobbies, is to vote them out of office. The logical counterargument to that is the two-party system in the USA makes that difficult to get done but, again, that's the unhealthy voter loyalty to a two-party system. Lobby for an independent.

I'm less in agreement with you on your second point. I am simply saying corporations have the right to speak.

The owner of Starbucks, however, is calling on all of Corporate America to suspend all funding for political candidates and organizations, essentially a lobby in itself.

As I said, corporate America is pretty frustrated with the political landscape as well, hence them sitting on $2 trillion in cash right now because of uncertainty. Its a prudent business decision.

Third, now to business, as you yourself Cowperson have suggested, bring in reforms for the banking system. Again, I'm no expert, but I would think the US could probably get closer to mirroring our system as a start.

Ironically, they're arguing for downsizing "too big to fail" banks while we've been propping up ours.

Do not confuse the banking system with enhanced oversight of derivatives, separating investment banking from true banking, etc, etc.

Banking itself is a pretty steady business. As with insurance companies in the 90's, its predictable. Both get in trouble when they're allowed to add entities that seem like natural synergies in good times but can bring the whole group down in bad times through excessive, unregulated leverage.

Fourth, back to the corporations, close those tax loopholes. You don't even need to tax them more, just make sure they (and their boards and shareholders) are paying their share.

The entire tax system needs a massive overhaul, including extremely costly entitlements to individuals.

To reach agreement, you'd need give and take on both sides and can't forcus on the corporate side.

They need to be done in that order though, because if you don't clean up capital hill, they won't have the ability or will to clean up the economic sectors as they will still be in their pockets.

And I would point out again, you have many Titans Of Industry, corporate CEO's out there and good Americans, arguing for comprehensive tax reform.

In the 2008 recession, overall Federal tax revenues fell by one-thid. Corporations are writing off the losses allowed them from the brutal business environment of the time, flattening out their tax bills in the short term, so its not a surprise if you see a bunch of them zeroing out right now. That doesn't necessarily mean they won't be paying taxes in future years under the current tax system. The widely-held observation within the Occupy Wall St. movement that corporations pay zero taxes forever doesn't necessarily speak highly of the group.

But multi-nationals expose a certain lack of competitiveness in the American tax code . . . . . these corporations can shift income where the tax burden is friendliest. That's not treasonous. That's just good business. America has to compete for dollars and jobs on the global stage. That's also part of tax code reform.

And that is the catch 22, the politicians aren't going to give up what they have right now. No way, no how. I mean look what the Repubs were prepared to do just to try and get back into power 1.5 years from now. And based on how Obama has behaved so far, the Dems aren't going to give up their perks either.

You're overrating them. If enough people are frustrated, these people can be voted out in the blink of an eye. They pay attention to polls so, in a way, you're controlling them, moreso than you think.

Similarly, voters are responsible for the people who are elected. Its one of the reasons I cheered Hamas being elected to power in Palestine in 2006 . . . . they couldn't hide behind the skirts of the population anymore and, secondly, citizens were responsible for their terrorism. A very healthy relationship. So I was a little bummed when Western powers reacted fairly violently to this development . . . . . shortsightedness I think.

The USA is pretty rife for a third or fourth political party. Its probably a very credible solution right now. And healthy for democracy.

But old habits die hard. They're are still people in Canada who vote Liberal out of habit. There are still women in Canada who vote for the political party their husband decides on.

And lastly, I will again observe that independent candidates, calls for a third party and voter frustration typically appear in times of economic turmoil . . . . and not when times are good.

It speaks to a certain "what's in it for me" kind of attitude among those doing the complaining, instead of firm principles.

Lastly, for Canada, I just think it's important to highlight the voices of those who feel outside the system and bring attention to the fact that even though we are weathering the economic storm pretty well here in Canada, there are many people who need help. I also think it's important to show we are active in democracy, lest some of the policies that have cause so many problems down south start to creep up here. I know this may sound abstract to a lot of people but it's really not. A vigilant populous keeps the politicians honest (or at least more honest).

Blah. Dogma.

Thanks for listing the points. Its the start of debate and therefore the start of solutions. The Occupy Wall St. movement needs more of it.

Cowperson

[Bill Bumface]

Merge Calgary. Do not Occupy.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

Merge Calgary. Do not Occupy.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by username

The only thing that I can possibly see making sense is someone protesting the bailouts of 2008. Now it's 2011 and you've kind of missed that boat. Furthermore the bailouts didn't occur in Canada they were down in the US so what exactly are people protesting up here?

Actually, there were bailouts in Canada too. Just not in the banking sector. The federal and Ontario provincial governments pledged $4 billion in loans to GM and Chrysler. And protesting that, in retrospect, would have been a mistake, as not only were the loans repaid six years early, but the government got a commitment by Chrysler to guarantee 20% of its production will happen in Canada. We turned a profit, and we got guaranteed jobs out of the deal.

Which, when you get down to it, kind of flies in the face of the arguments OccupyWherever is theoretically making. Government was able to improve the lot of both big business and the little guy.

[VladtheImpaler]

I haven't had a chance to read a lot of the thread, but if I am unhappy with how people merge in Calgary, I should go to St. Patrick's and protest?

[username]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Actually, there were bailouts in Canada too. Just not in the banking sector. The federal and Ontario provincial governments pledged $4 billion in loans to GM and Chrysler. And protesting that, in retrospect, would have been a mistake, as not only were the loans repaid six years early, but the government got a commitment by Chrysler to guarantee 20% of its production will happen in Canada. We turned a profit, and we got guaranteed jobs out of the deal.

Which, when you get down to it, kind of flies in the face of the arguments OccupyWherever is theoretically making. Government was able to improve the lot of both big business and the little guy.

That's a great point. The same could be said for the bailout of many of the US automakers.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

The USA is pretty rife for a third or fourth political party. Its probably a very credible solution right now. And healthy for democracy.

I think the climate is right for a Reform Party that is not rooted in the left or the right.

[SeeBass]

I'm waiting to see a sign that says " I want my country back"

[Ben_in_Canada]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Welcome to protesting in the modern era.

Slutwalk has devolved into the same thing.

So to clarify...... will there be a slutwalk?????

[getbak]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

I'm waiting to see a sign that says " I want my country back"

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by troutman

I think the climate is right for a Reform Party that is not rooted in the left or the right.

"Go ahead, throw your vote away."

[Cowperson]

Daradon,

I just want to repeat the line from Max the Miracle Worker in The Princess Bride, as he's bidding the trio farewell.

"Have fun storming the castle boys!! Bye, bye!!"

And I mean that, get out and protest. Have fun.

Cowperson

[J pold]

So this breaks down to people being sort of upset about something that we think needs to change and those people down in the Wall Street are doing something so I guess we should to.

[CaptainCrunch]

if we only had a wheelbarrow, that would be something.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by Daradon

(What I would ask for)

I can't disagree with a lot of what you've said Cowperson. But I do think without change it will get much worse.

I guess if people want to know what I think, and what I want, it would be as this:

I will focus on the US first as that's really the meat of the argument, and it is a point I made in a previous thread.

I think they need (and I would ask for) four types of reform or regulations. The first two for the political system, the second two for the economic system.

First, change how money works in the electoral system. Change the PAC's and the SUPERPAC's and the corporations used to hide the SUPERPAC donation lists. Make rules on how much can be donated and get rid of all the loopholes all these PAC's represent.

Second, tighten up the lobbies. I know, not too much to ask right? I can't really tell you how, but I think most people agree the corporations and special interest groups have far too much say in governance, and more importantly, prevent the representative from acting in the best interests of their constituants(sp). Put regulations again on donations, gifts, etc. and tighten up those loopholes.

Third, now to business, as you yourself Cowperson have suggested, bring in reforms for the banking system. Again, I'm no expert, but I would think the US could probably get closer to mirroring our system as a start.

Fourth, back to the corporations, close those tax loopholes. You don't even need to tax them more, just make sure they (and their boards and shareholders) are paying their share.

They need to be done in that order though, because if you don't clean up capital hill, they won't have the ability or will to clean up the economic sectors as they will still be in their pockets.

And that is the catch 22, the politicians aren't going to give up what they have right now. No way, no how. I mean look what the Repubs were prepared to do just to try and get back into power 1.5 years from now. And based on how Obama has behaved so far, the Dems aren't going to give up their perks either.

So if the people who need to fix the problem, won't fix the problem cause they are part of the problem, isn't that when protesting is supposed to take place?

As I said, it is a lot of, 'I wish, and we should' and not a lot of 'this is how we do it', but for those that think I don't have and idea of what I would like to see, or what others would like to see I hope it proves otherwise.

Lastly, for Canada, I just think it's important to highlight the voices of those who feel outside the system and bring attention to the fact that even though we are weathering the economic storm pretty well here in Canada, there are many people who need help. I also think it's important to show we are active in democracy, lest some of the policies that have cause so many problems down south start to creep up here. I know this may sound abstract to a lot of people but it's really not. A vigilant populous keeps the politicians honest (or at least more honest).

I hope that's a start for what some people may want out of demonstrating and proof I have ideas of what I think would help. As I said, I can't speak for everyone, and I think that's the point.

Could you just go occupy Washington then? Seriously, it sounds like your super-concerned for the US, so you're going to go out and occupy... Calgary? And your justification for here is to prevent "policies that have caused[d] so many problems down south..." It doesn't sound abstract; it sounds like BS. Just call it the "just in case protest" or maybe the "Occupy My Time protest." This denigrates protests that raise actual concerns. A vigilant populace votes.

[Jordan!]

Pretty hilarious/ridiculous if this occupy movement picks up in Canada.. yeah, universal healthcare anyone??

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

Pretty hilarious/ridiculous if this occupy movement picks up in Canada.. yeah, universal healthcare anyone??

Well since the movement is about identifying big business and government problems, I can think of something Canada needs to improve on, which ties into corporate greed, inequality and skirting fair play.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2032347/

[pylon]

I would have come down and helped you guys protest today, but I was too busy being overpaid at my job, that I busted my ass for 12 years to get.

So much of this BS movement is about entitlement, and these slacktivists not being handed a 6 figure job right out of school, it is BS. Notice how next to nobody (except those looking for attention) that is protesting has a good job, and has a good career, or is financially stable.

This whole movement is all about blame, and people not taking responsibility for their actions. "I ran my ass 80K into credit card debt, I am going to blame the people that gave me the credit limit!" "I took a 750k mortgage on a 60K income, and when the job market softened, I couldn't pay, it's the BANKS fault, for letting me make a ######ed decision!" "I got a 16 year doctorate in Upper-Eastern Siberian throat singing... WHY WON'T NASA HIRE ME?!"

Everyone was all okay with everything and turning a blind eye until the house of cards collapsed. Now, a lot of people that made bad decisions, are looking for a scapegoat. Take responsibility people, have some accountability.

[Bunk]

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

"Go ahead, throw your vote away."