Occupy Calgary/Do Not Merge

[Muta]

Maybe a protestor here in Calgary could make the case of a select group of people holding most of the wealth in Alberta because of oil and gas interests; resources on which every Albertan sits on? I don't know, but that could be the basis for dissent here.

I don't neessarily agree with that, but it could definitely be a reason for protest, especially in Calgary where money flows like water in really just one industry.

[Ducay]

TL;DR rambling much?

All I understand is the OP has no idea what he's protesting, aside from his love of ultimate frisbee and/or frisbee golf

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Daradon

No, we will just fight for you so you never have to.

Thanks I appreciate that, but you really don't need to bother, I'm pretty happy with things thanks.

to be clear, you aren't fighting for my rights, because I don't agree with all of your protest points.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Thanks I appreciate that, but you really don't need to bother, I'm pretty happy with things thanks.

to be clear, you aren't fighting for my rights, because I don't agree with all of your protest points.

Oh, I was confused, I thought I was just replying to a smart assed remark. I didn't think we were being serious.

If you want to debate or engage, go ahead, but if your going to make your first comment what it was, you will get the reply you did.

Edit: Re your 'I guess I'm the 1%' You know that's not the point, nor are you in that demographic.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Daradon

I am participating in democracy for the sake of participating in democracy. Considering about 40% of Canadians don't even vote, I am not surprised nor swayed by the response.

Have you voted in all of the last elections? Have all of the protestors? Maybe you should make that a requirement of their participation, that they have to have a track record of voting in all municiple, provincial and federal elections.

But then again one of the protest points is that they're unhappy with the last federal election so they now want electorial reform.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by Icon

I understand the "democracy" behind a protest/demonstration... but when you can't even outline the reason for your demonstration, why should you expect anyone to join you?

It is a forum for all of the unemployed arts majors to kick up a fuss about how many jobs are available in the oil industry.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Icon

I understand the "democracy" behind a protest/demonstration... but when you can't even outline the reason for your demonstration, why should you expect anyone to join you?

Le sigh. Think of it not as a protest then, but as a gathering of people saying this is an important time, important events fall around us, and we want to make sure we don't go the way of those around us.

[Bigtime]

I can't understand half of what is being said in this thread.

Will the frisbee golf course be disturbed? Enthusiasts demand to know!

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

The gap between the rich and the poor widens because of over regulation of the real economy. Regulation falls hardest on the weakest in society, who have the least means to avoid it. Thus, they are weakened even further, and the gap grows. I'll provide two general examples and one personal anecdote.

1) The tax code. It gets more and more complicated every year, and corporations and the rich require a huge staff of tax accountants/lawyers to minimize their bills. Those people are high income white collar types on the top of the gap. But the increased tax burden means marginal economic activity (the plant that was only making a bit of money before) gets shut down, and the front line workers have to find other work. They move down the income ladder, and the gap widens.

2) Regulations like dairy supply management raise prices of basic goods for everyone (compare our dairy prices to other places - we're higher), a burden which affects an underemployed single mom much more than a wealthy person. The benefits from this are concentrated into a few farmers, all of whom now have hundreds of thousands of dollars of government created assets (quota). A small politically connected group benefits at the expense of everyone, especially the poor. Seem fair to you?

3) Government monopolies and regulation make business less competitive. I ran a small mail order business, but Canada Post shipping wasn't even close to cost competitive with the prices my US competition could get. It cost less for them to mail my product from Florida to Calgary than it did for me to mail it from Calgary to Calgary. The enforced lack of postal competition cost me that business. I'm fine, I focused on my career instead, and am no worse off. The decent job for an unskilled person doing packing and shipping is gone now though. The regulation didn't hurt the higher income person, it hurt the low income person. And the benefits of the regulation flowed to a small politically connected group (postal workers) at the expense of everyone else, especially the poor.

1) We'd all agree the USA tax code is an incomprehensible mess and became that way through time as entitlements kept being added.

From Wall St. titans to the lowest of taxpayers, most would agree it needs to be simplified . . . . . or at least, they all agree right up to and until reform takes away something that currently benefits them. Then the debate gets tougher.

About 47% of Americans pay no taxes while roughly 20% of taxpayers pony up about 80% of all receivables.

2) Dairy issues may be completely different than other industries. You can't make a blanket statement to say all regulatory oversight is bad and raises prices.

A lack of regulatory oversight in easily-manipulated, leverage-creating, poorly understood derivatives as well as in the mortgage business created a substantial part of the financial collapse of 2008. And is sitting out there waiting to happen again.

In addition, allowing normally staid, long-lived and predictable banking businesses to be integrated and then taken down by leverage-loving investment bankers was, in hindsight, a regulatory mistake as much as a human mistake.

Looked good on paper though!!!

3) Enhanced regulations in the Canadian financial sector limited growth relative to global peers in the 2000's but also ensured the sector didn't become as unhealthy as the rest of the world, saving Canadians a large part of the strife you see in the USA right now.

Again, every industry is different and requires differing levels of oversight but it is a raw mistake, backed by ample amounts of history, to assume ALL business will police themselves for the betterment of society.

That assumption is contrary to everything you should know about human nature and the profit motive.

As Reagan once said, "Trust but verify."

Cowperson

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Have you voted in all of the last elections? Have all of the protestors? Maybe you should make that a requirement of their participation, that they have to have a track record of voting in all municiple, provincial and federal elections.

But then again one of the protest points is that they're unhappy with the last federal election so they now want electorial reform.

I have voted in all elections since I turned of age. Federal, Provincial, and Municipal (cept one I was in the hospital). I have even worked taking votes twice at Federal elections.

And no, obviously asking for the same requirement is stupid. I think what your asking me is, 'are all the people there acting on responsible grounds and ideals?' To which I say, very possibly not. But then I have to ask you to judge what is worthwhile and what is not. And one has to ask how many of serious protesters ANYWHERE, including ones who have overthrown dictators, didn't get get in because of something selfish, or even because they got swept up.

If you want to engage with serious debate, I will reply. You are usually one of the better posters. But I'm not going to reply to the next 'comment/joke for fun'.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Icon

Yeah I second this. Seems like you're basically protesting for the sake of protesting?

Welcome to protesting in the modern era.

Slutwalk has devolved into the same thing.

[Flabbibulin]

Originally Posted by Daradon

No, we will just fight for you so you never have to.

Ha ha, sorry bud- don't think for a second you can hijack a phrase used to honor our soldiers and war veterans, who have legitimately made a difference in our society.

You guys aren't fighting for anything.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

Ha ha, sorry bud- don't think for a second you can hijack a phrase used to honor our soldiers and war veterans, who have legitimately made a difference in our society.

You guys aren't fighting for anything.

Not even the vets who are going there?

I didn't hijack anything, I gave CC a smart assed response to an equally smart assed post. But you'd be foolish to think that vets aren't represented in these movements. In fact, as a group that was largely ignored for their contributions in the States, they are among the most vocal.

So no, I can't speak for them, but if you want to speak to some of them, you could come down, or get involved.

[Freeway]

How do I "occupy" Calgary? I'm already here...

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

You can't make a blanket statement to say all regulatory oversight is bad and raises prices.

I never did that. I said "...over regulation in the real economy..." by which I meant the large amount of unnecessary regulations (with dairy as only one example). Obviously some regulation is necessary, which is why I used the term "over regulation." To continue the dairy example, regulations on the cleanliness/safety of milk production are important, whereas regulations prohibiting "outsiders" from producing milk are not.

I specified "real economy" because the financial industry regulation is a different ballgame entirely. The only comment I would make there is that the Canadian regulatory regime seems to have come through pretty well for us recently, and I'm not sure that adding a bunch of new regulations to that make sense, as they could have unintended consequences. (Basel III, etc) I would also be opposed to gutting it however. Maybe some incremental changes might make sense (CMHC limit to 10% from 5%, stuff like that)

[Hevishot]

If these people would Occupy jobs insted of complain about people who work hard and make money to support their families than I would hear them out. To blame the oil industry in this province for creating a wealth division is crap. Either you want to work hard and get ahead or you want to sit on your A$$ and protest and think what your doing is going to make a difference. And than to say "oh well we will just fight for you so you never have to" give your head a shake the people who are "Occupying" are probably the same people who show up for anti war protests and condemn the actions of the soliders.

Rant Over. Go bang your welfare drum somewhere else....

[Slava]

I might show up to protest the protests....in which case I guess I would just join the rest of the group there protesting indiscriminate things?

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Le sigh. Think of it not as a protest then, but as a gathering of people saying this is an important time, important events fall around us, and we want to make sure we don't go the way of those around us.

I think a lot of weed might be smoked at this event...

[RedJester]

Can't figure out why they're protesting? Do you not watch the news or something?

Quite frankly I'm surprised it took this long.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

I think a lot of weed might be smoked at this event...

As a poster with the overused image of 'Che' I can't imagine you'd be opposed to that, or many of the other goings on...