...Is anyone worried about the US going the way of Greece soon? Govt has no money, yet supports 1/3 of their population (14% on food, 12% on social security, 10% work for the govt). What is going to happen when they run out of money or when the inevitable devaluation of the US dollar happens?
This is all lining up for a huge US crisis.
There are enormous differences between Greece and the US, and probably more differences than similarities economically. One important factor though is that the US doesn't have to rely on other countries...it might not be pretty, but they can print more money. One issue the Greeks have is that they don't control that factor.
Another point that people should recognize is that both Canada (in the early 1990's) and Australia (around 1986 if memory serves) have been in pretty big trouble fiscally before. Its not easy, and not fun but there is a way out. In Canada and in Alberta in particular it was a recipe of both cost cutting and asset sales. We obviously still recall the cost cutting in terms of programs. The other factor is largely forgotten, but the province sold a lot of things as well: we privatized alcohol sales; we moved registries to the private sector; we divested of the old Alberta Energy Corp. and a few other areas. This was partly ideology of the government of the day, but partly driven to get out of debt.
The US has some issues ahead of it. They'll be doing some cost cutting, and likely some asset sales as well (I'm not too familiar with what they have that they could sell, but it could be as simple as real estate holdings which isn't uncommon). Point is that they need to make the revenues and expenditures a little closer to one another and there are ways to do this. The political will to do this will follow as people demand better.
Eh honestly this seems like the tea-party movement all over again, misdirected anger & frustration with lots of signs. Just replace rednecks with hippies and their pretty much the same thing.
Yes the system is broken/rigged/unregulated and something needs to happen. But these protest seem like the typical internet mentality:
1) Identify an enemy/scapegoat (in this case it's "The Man" I think?)
2) Throw a huge protest!
3) ????
4) PROFIT!
I do hope I get to change my twitter avatar to another colour soon though, that would be quite the show of support!
There are enormous differences between Greece and the US, and probably more differences than similarities economically. One important factor though is that the US doesn't have to rely on other countries...it might not be pretty, but they can print more money. One issue the Greeks have is that they don't control that factor.
This is my exact point. The more money they print, the more they devalue their currency, and the FURTHER the world moves away from using it as the global currency. There have been many talks and meetings lately between the OTHER world powers about de-centralizing trading from the US dollar. if (when?) that happens, watch the inflation happen in the US. What do you think happens when oil, gas, groceries, etc all jump by 100% inflation in the US?
I’m not sure where I stand in regards to these protestors. It is kind of surreal to me that they are essentially protesting my chosen profession (at least I think they are). I currently work at a large multinational financial conglomerate in the investment banking division and we have many offices in New York, there has even been a few internal emails of pictures taken of the crowd by the NYC office. On the one hand if they are protesting income inequality in the US than I’m fully behind them in every way, as I think that disparity has grown far too large. On the other hand I am kind of defensive, I personally don’t think what I do hurts anybody or takes food out of someone’s mouth. My collogues aren’t evil blood sucking capitalists who would step over their mothers grave in order to make a buck, believe it or not they are just honest hard working people.
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This is my exact point. The more money they print, the more they devalue their currency, and the FURTHER the world moves away from using it as the global currency. There have been many talks and meetings lately between the OTHER world powers about de-centralizing trading from the US dollar. if (when?) that happens, watch the inflation happen in the US. What do you think happens when oil, gas, groceries, etc all jump by 100% inflation in the US?
Occupy Wall St. won't be the only protest.
Not sure what other currency can take its place. Definitely not the Euro. The Yen or RMB? Bank of China will never go for that. Not sure about BoJ.
This whole occupy ____ movement sort of reminds me of the "fata the gap" t-shirts in London. The Man is going to tell me to "mind the gap?" (clearly sensible safety advise) - well, fata the gap!!!! silly and pointless.
so true, he pretty much hits the nail on the head particularly when he touches on American propaganda and control of the media (aka CNN, Fox, whatever else they claim is news).
And jpold, the people you work with might not be the same people that have caused America's issues, but rest assured they are similar. The financial industry, banks, the greed, it's all exactly what is wrong with the world today and the reason for this recession. There is no solution now. I know you might not want to believe it because you're probably a good, honest guy and you chose that career path but how can you deny the fact that the financial sector has basically doomed America?
If America was honest with itself and stood true to its "ideology", there would be no bailouts (social assistance, communism, etc etc), and all these companies would have gone bankrupt and I do wonder what the world would be like today if the US let nature run its course back in 2008.
Just way too many issues to resolve. If you read up on the history that caused French revolution there are some similarities... one almost wonders how the US gets out of this mess without a massive revolution (not necessarily a violent one) that completely changes its government, financial systems, everything.
^also i'd just like to add that should things continue the way they have been whereby income disparity continues to grow, than the masses will be inevitably large enough that some kind of enormous national overhaul will be virtually guaranteed. You cannot take all the money from the middle class, force millions of people into poverty and then sit on your pile of money. It isn't going to work.
This whole occupy ____ movement sort of reminds me of the "fata the gap" t-shirts in London. The Man is going to tell me to "mind the gap?" (clearly sensible safety advise) - well, fata the gap!!!! silly and pointless.
The financial industry, banks, the greed, it's all exactly what is wrong with the world today and the reason for this recession.
And it had nothing to do with Americans sense of entitlement? Nothing to do with their supposed right to "a big house, two cars, all the latest gadgets" and the ridiculous loans they took out to get these things? I'll be the first one to admit that the banking industry in the US is messed up and what some people did was horrible. It's clear it needs to change. However, it's way to easy for people to throw all the blame on these large corporations and completely ignore the fact that they also played a huge role in all this. Did the banks deceive people and approve loans that shouldn't have been approve? Yes and it was wrong and irresponsible of them. But, how could anyone with common sense think that taking out loan after loan after loan that you clearly couldn't afford should rates change was a good idea?
These people protesting now don't actually want change. They just want their big houses, cars and gadgets back. While its awesome for them to cite the way Scandinavian countries are set up and how awesome they are (I personally do think these countries do have pretty good systems) I can guarantee you if you told them they'd have to pay out half their income to the government, everyone would abandon ship.
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They should send the idiots protesting to an "education camp" that shows videos of how their preferred future actually works out.
The film will be called "the USSR and North Korea - Enjoy half a loaf of bread all week and the inability to buy the latest iphone to tweet your socialist garbage with"
The alternate title will be "Shut the ###### up hippies, communism sucks"
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE SCUD
The end of capitalism HAS to result in some form of "Communism". I suggest you look up Communism. At its root, it's sharing (hint: look up the word "commune"). If people can't compete for there own betterment, then, by logic, they must be working of the betterment of everyone else, to some degree. Therefore I am correct - The removal of capitalism is, by logical conclusion, the promotion of some form of communism.
If we do go commie, I am certainly quitting my job and becoming an unemployed bum, so the hippies can work their ass off to support me and see how it feels with the tables turned.
This coming from the same guy who wrote a letter to his MP and started a thread asking for regulations on Asians buying homes in Vancouver and driving up prices?
I guess it's "please Mr. Anders" when you want regulations; but "shut up commies" when other's do?
To understand how people could be sucked into those horrible loans, you have to understand what happens when uneducated, stupid people are exposed to the dog-eat-dog business world with little regulation. Such a large portion of the American people have no idea what they are doing. They have no ability to see how bad of decisions they were making when there's a salesperson telling them how great it will be for them.
A relevant example of that today is for profit colleges in the United States. Right now, schools like University of Phoenix are preying on the stupid by making them sign up for huge loans to get bull #### degrees. They promise jobs that don't exist after graduation.
I spent time in my old home, Weiser, Idaho, this summer. A place where the graduating high school classes are only educated in the most basic of manner. Most can't read, write or do math at a high enough level to make it through a college curriculum. About 10% of any graduating class will get their degree from a legitimate university.
I talked to a lot of old classmates, a bunch of them were getting University of Phoenix degrees. One girl even told me she was getting 4 degrees from Phoenix. They had some recruiter come tell them about how they too could be educated and get great jobs like the smart kids they know, so they signed up. They'll come out in a couple years with degrees in Psych or Criminal Justice, 50K-100K in debt with no job prospects.
Do these people deserve blame for their bad decisions? Yes, they should have known better. Is touting personal responsibility while not doing anything about regulation going to solve the problem? No. It's basically a number's game, if regulation and education increase then the number of people falling for scams will decrease and vice versa.
The protesters aren't the people that received predatory loans. I'm willing to bet a large portion of the protesters are the young and educated. The real victims are the ones who aren't educated or informed enough to realize how much the deck is getting stacked against them.
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so true, he pretty much hits the nail on the head particularly when he touches on American propaganda and control of the media (aka CNN, Fox, whatever else they claim is news).
And jpold, the people you work with might not be the same people that have caused America's issues, but rest assured they are similar. The financial industry, banks, the greed, it's all exactly what is wrong with the world today and the reason for this recession. There is no solution now. I know you might not want to believe it because you're probably a good, honest guy and you chose that career path but how can you deny the fact that the financial sector has basically doomed America?
If America was honest with itself and stood true to its "ideology", there would be no bailouts (social assistance, communism, etc etc), and all these companies would have gone bankrupt and I do wonder what the world would be like today if the US let nature run its course back in 2008.
Just way too many issues to resolve. If you read up on the history that caused French revolution there are some similarities... one almost wonders how the US gets out of this mess without a massive revolution (not necessarily a violent one) that completely changes its government, financial systems, everything.
^also i'd just like to add that should things continue the way they have been whereby income disparity continues to grow, than the masses will be inevitably large enough that some kind of enormous national overhaul will be virtually guaranteed. You cannot take all the money from the middle class, force millions of people into poverty and then sit on your pile of money. It isn't going to work.
We would be well and truly f'd. Completely. People act like only the banks benefited from those bailouts, when the reality is that there was such a lack of liquidity in the market that employers of millions would have been unable to make payroll.
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[QUOTE=valo403;3310281]We would be well and truly f'd. Completely. People act like only the banks benefited from those bailouts, when the reality is that there was such a lack of liquidity in the market that employers of millions would have been unable to make payroll.[/QUOTE]
Without question. The other issue was that if I wrote you a cheque for $100 the concern wasn't whether I had the $100. Your question was whether the bank had the $100 of mine. Thats no big deal if its me giving you $100...probably not the difference between eating or not that day. When there is payroll to meet, or a super-tanker full of goods sitting in the harbour though its a crippling deal. Were there mistakes made and too much money paid where it ought not to have been? Sure, quite likely. But when your hand is forced and the entire financial system is freezing up before your very eyes you throw money at it by the truckload and hope its enough. Maybe the tea party or Republicans wouldn't have done this. Thats not a good thing and the results are predictably catastrophic if you don't act.
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Yes because protesting about moneyed interests destroying the middle class and hording wealth is the same thing as "#### the gap" t-shirts.
Are you just assuming the establishment knows what's best and have developed a lazy opinion based on that?
Yes, perhaps not the same - but nonetheless ineffectual. I would suggest that this unfocused protest is probably the least effective action they can take if there are genuinely interested in change. Like many of said, it's not clear what people collectively protesting. Or maybe there is an element of anger for anger's sake - like "###### the gap"
Yes, perhaps not the same - but nonetheless ineffectual. I would suggest that this unfocused protest is probably the least effective action they can take if there are genuinely interested in change. Like many of said, it's not clear what people collectively protesting. Or maybe there is an element of anger for anger's sake - like "###### the gap"
I think it's pretty clear what they're protesting, a political and financial system that is enormously beneficial to and protective of those that need it the least. One protester said he had a degree in business, but he was also $100k in debt, couldn't find work and couldn't afford rent. His situation is not unique. Does not sound like anger for anger's sake to me.
The only thing that will make these protests ineffectual is if they peter out. If they continue to grow they could become very meaningful.
I think it's pretty clear what they're protesting, a political and financial system that is enormously beneficial to and protective of those that need it the least. One protester said he had a degree in business, but he was also $100k in debt, couldn't find work and couldn't afford rent. His situation is not unique. Does not sound like anger for anger's sake to me.
The only thing that will make these protests ineffectual is if they peter out. If they continue to grow they could become very meaningful.
OK, hypothetically speaking here, to do what exactly? What is the "endgame"?
Yes, perhaps not the same - but nonetheless ineffectual. I would suggest that this unfocused protest is probably the least effective action they can take if there are genuinely interested in change. Like many of said, it's not clear what people collectively protesting. Or maybe there is an element of anger for anger's sake - like "###### the gap"
I don't understand how its not clear. It's clearly against corporate greed, bad banking and governance systems, and stupid people making selfish decisions at the top. What is so hard to understand about that? Or is it too vague of a message?
I'm noticing a trend among people who don't support these protests - they think there's no objective, but to me, that's just playing dumb to support your position.
I don't understand how its not clear. It's clearly against corporate greed, bad banking and governance systems, and stupid people making selfish decisions at the top. What is so hard to understand about that? Or is it too vague of a message?
.
It just sounds very stupid.
Take out "corporate greed," "bad banking" and "stupid people making selfish decisions at the top" and leave "governance systems" and you've finally got some proper focus.
And if that's where you are - protesting "governance systems" - then why are you protesting on Wall St?
You should be at the state legislature or in Washington or on the campaign trail attacking politicians because that is where "governance systems" will be influenced.
I was just listening to Obama's speech on TV and he basically said, almost word-for-word, the same thing I said earlier in this thread . . . . . . that we are likely finding, generally, that no laws were broken in 2008, hence a lack of criminal charges, that Wall St. types are among the best and brightest among us and very clever and opportunitistic if an opening is presented to them through a weakened regulatory environment, that they are very profit-oriented even in the face of moral ambiguity, which isn't a crime in the current regulatory environment, and that the regulatory and supervisory functions had been weakened too far by politicians through multiple administrations.
Seriously, he said exactly that.
And, my point earlier in the thread, if you loosen the cages at the zoo enough so that the Lions can get out, don't be surprised if they do what comes instinctively and naturally, including taking down innocent men, women and children in the streets.
This is really about the regulatory environment.
Put the lions back in regulatory cages where they can do what they do best and which is extremely helpful to global commerce . . . . but keep the cage just tight enough that they can't hurt you as well.
That's the job of your duly elected politicians.
In Egypt, in Iran, in Syria, in Libya . . . . its about regime-change. The demand is pretty clear and simple.
I guess you gotta protest somewhere and probably about something but yes, a lack of a focussed message with a clear agenda is probably hurting the Occupy Wall St. movement. They're frustrated but they sound like illiterate dummies frankly.
Cowperson
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