September 11th Thread

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Isn't it amazing what freedom a few billion barrels of oil can buy from the United States. Saudi Arabia is one of the most close minded societies on the planet, and embraces all those things that the US supposedly hates in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc., yet they continue to turn a blind eye to what they do to people in that country and attack others for the same things. If you have oil and are selling it to American companies the US will let you get away with murder.

:doo:

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Sep 15 2004, 06:18 PM
Isn't it amazing what freedom a few billion barrels of oil can buy from the United States. Saudi Arabia is one of the most close minded societies on the planet, and embraces all those things that the US supposedly hates in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc., yet they continue to turn a blind eye to what they do to people in that country and attack others for the same things. If you have oil and are selling it to American companies the US will let you get away with murder.

:doo:

In the grand tradition of The Ugly American and a layover from the Cold War, its the Bill Maher Theory personified - prop up ugly governments in return for their support.

According to Maher, it sure beats invading them to get what you want.

Cowperson

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Sep 15 2004, 06:18 PM
Isn't it amazing what freedom a few billion barrels of oil can buy from the United States. Saudi Arabia is one of the most close minded societies on the planet, and embraces all those things that the US supposedly hates in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc., yet they continue to turn a blind eye to what they do to people in that country and attack others for the same things. If you have oil and are selling it to American companies the US will let you get away with murder.

:doo:

Yeah, it'd be nice if idealism was in charge, but realism holds a firm grip on the way that international relations works. If x choice enriches our state, and y choice does not, then there's really not a lot to debate. Often issues like fairness, human rights, democracy, are merely sub-factors in calculating the proper course to take. The US puts up w/ quite a few human rights violations in China, and yet buys Chinese stuff faster than it can be made due to its cost.

As always, idealism is ground into the dust under the jackboot of realism. Under these circumstances, how can one not be a realist? Fun stuff.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by Cowperson+Sep 14 2004, 04:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cowperson @ Sep 14 2004, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Lurch@Sep 13 2004, 03:16 PM
Thinking about 9/11 always takes me back to videos they showed me in school from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Bombing these cities was probably the most horrific act ever done by mankind, yet all I ever felt was a distached feeling of sympathy and a nagging feeling that what we had done (the west) was brutal beyond belief. I mean, why not drop one bomb on an island and demonstrate what would happen rather than wiping out hundreds of thousands of civilians. .

Not to be a knob, but the firebombing of Tokyo killed 100,000 or so in a single night and the firebombings of Dresden and Hamburg were positively nuclear-like in their death totals as well.

Come to think of it, The Rape Of Nanking by the Japanese killed about 100,000 Chinese civilians before World War II.

About 1 million Leningraders died in the siege of that city by the Nazi's.

Ah, screw it . . . . .

Man is an ugly beast, no matter how its done.

Cowperson [/b][/quote]
Bash me if you want, but the events of 9/11 just strike me as different then those other horrid events

The rape of nanking was done by a military in a war situation, no less horrible, but the people that were slaughtered at least had some warning based on the record of the Japanese Military up to that point

The Firebombings in Tokyo and Dresden and Hamburg were done during a war when terror bombing was wide spread and declared, as was carpet bombing.

Like I said it makes it no less terrible

The attack of 9/11 was different because there was no warning, no declaration of war, it was akin to a mugger walking out of the alley and shooting you in the back of the head in front of your family.

All of these issues were horrid and the worst examples of mankind. But 9/11 sticks out a little bit more to me.

[CaptainCrunch]

QUOTE (Lurch @ Sep 13 2004, 03:16 PM)
Thinking about 9/11 always takes me back to videos they showed me in school from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Bombing these cities was probably the most horrific act ever done by mankind, yet all I ever felt was a distached feeling of sympathy and a nagging feeling that what we had done (the west) was brutal beyond belief. I mean, why not drop one bomb on an island and demonstrate what would happen rather than wiping out hundreds of thousands of civilians. .

We debated this one ad nauseum in school, and we figured that a island bombing wouldn't have deterred the Military Government that was in place. When they bombed Hiroshima they got no response from those in charge as they probably felt and thier intelligence organizations had told them that there was only one bomb built due to a shortage of Weapons grade material in the States at the time.

When the second bomb was dropped it not only forced the Military to doubt its own sources, but the emperor finally got involved in wresting control from the Military and forced them to accept a peace treaty.

Dropping a bomb on a Island would have had little effect on the controled propaganda in Japan at the time.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@Sep 15 2004, 07:12 PM
Bash me if you want, but the events of 9/11 just strike me as different then those other horrid events

The rape of nanking was done by a military in a war situation, no less horrible, but the people that were slaughtered at least had some warning based on the record of the Japanese Military up to that point

The Firebombings in Tokyo and Dresden and Hamburg were done during a war when terror bombing was wide spread and declared, as was carpet bombing.

Like I said it makes it no less terrible

The attack of 9/11 was different because there was no warning, no declaration of war, it was akin to a mugger walking out of the alley and shooting you in the back of the head in front of your family.

All of these issues were horrid and the worst examples of mankind. But 9/11 sticks out a little bit more to me.

Seems to me that the US (or at least the people in charge) probably knew that they were at 'war' with 'terror' well before the events of 9/11. The WTC had already had an international terrorist action against it years earlier, and I'm sure bin Laden (as well as many other terrorists) declared war against the US well before 2001. I think its just easier to relate to 9/11 as a 'tragedy' because there were a ton of North Americans in the building, civilians, just like us.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@Sep 10 2004, 11:07 PM
I just thought that it might be a good idea to start a thread about the 9/11 Attacks. Nothing regarding politics should be posted here but more just a thread of thoughts on the anniversary of that date.

Ah, what could have been...

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch+Sep 15 2004, 07:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaptainCrunch @ Sep 15 2004, 07:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Not to be a knob, but the firebombing of Tokyo killed 100,000 or so in a single night and the firebombings of Dresden and Hamburg were positively nuclear-like in their death totals as well.

Come to think of it, The Rape Of Nanking by the Japanese killed about 100,000 Chinese civilians before World War II.

About 1 million Leningraders died in the siege of that city by the Nazi's.

Ah, screw it . . . . .

Man is an ugly beast, no matter how its done.

Cowperson

Bash me if you want, but the events of 9/11 just strike me as different then those other horrid events

The rape of nanking was done by a military in a war situation, no less horrible, but the people that were slaughtered at least had some warning based on the record of the Japanese Military up to that point

The Firebombings in Tokyo and Dresden and Hamburg were done during a war when terror bombing was wide spread and declared, as was carpet bombing.

Like I said it makes it no less terrible

The attack of 9/11 was different because there was no warning, no declaration of war, it was akin to a mugger walking out of the alley and shooting you in the back of the head in front of your family.

All of these issues were horrid and the worst examples of mankind. But 9/11 sticks out a little bit more to me. [/b][/quote]
Just to clarify, I wasn't comparing those events to 9/11.

An earlier post had said the most horrific event was the atom bombing of two Japanese cities. I demonstrated there were a few "conventional" wipeouts of equal ferocity.

9/11 wasn't part of the comparison.

Cowperson