2011 Blue Jays Season Thread

[moon]

Originally Posted by VERVE

If it is true of what you say, then Ashby and Elliot are just repeating and toying with the Mariners' poor decision of trying to make Morrow a closer. Like I have said many times over, Morrow didn't get a regular starter role until he was with the Jays when he was 25. He never got a chance to develop in Seattle. This explains his inconsistencies due to inexperience and lack of development.
Now, he is getting a well-deserved chance to develop with the Jays. He needs to be focus for longer periods then his location will be better.

They weren't repeating anything from the Mariners they were talking about what they have seen and heard from scouts based on Morrow really struggling when have to throw many pitches. Their point was that with really only one effective pitch that a closer role might fit better for him than having to try and throw pitches that he clearly has trouble doing consistently.

Today, Morrow pitched a strong game against a great hitting team, the Yankees, 3-0. He throws 40% of his pitches as fastballs but he also throws sliders just as much. Today, his change ups and curveballs were spot on. He not only throw heat and very well. He can mix it up with change up, curve and slider and occasional cut-fastball. He is coming around and with another year as a a regular starter, he will gain more experience and confidence and be that good pitcher that AA saw in him.

Yes I have said he can have a good game but he is 27 years old, the chance that he is going to dramatically improve especially after showing 0 improvement from last year is pretty unlikely. Feel free to keep your irrational hatred for the Mariners up but they seem to have done pretty well with the guy they got back in the deal and developed him just fine.

With a rebuilding team and tons of depths in all position, the Jays will be a contender in the next 2 -3 years. With guys like Gose, Adeiny Hechavarria coming to join Escobar, Lawrie, Rasmus, Bautista along with depth in the young pitchers, the Jays are fast, young and hungry. Their minor league affiliates are full of great young talents and are winning championships at those levels already. If they can get Darvish from Nippon Ham Fighters, wow watch out, they can be awfully, awfully good. With AA making great moves, the Jays will be one day true contenders.

This is an argument that is not worth having on here but I am sure the Yankees, Red SOx and Rays are shaking in their boots worrying about having the face the mighty Jays in the future.

[VERVE]

Originally Posted by moon

they weren't repeating anything from the mariners they were talking about what they have seen and heard from scouts based on morrow really struggling when have to throw many pitches. their point was that with really only one effective pitch that a closer role might fit better for him than having to try and throw pitches that he clearly has trouble doing consistently.

Get over the past will you. They are wrong. He has more than one effective pitch like i have been discussing in prev posts-read it. The jays are not stupid enough to put morrow into a closer. That is a waste.


yes i have said he can have a good game but he is 27 years old, the chance that he is going to dramatically improve especially after showing 0 improvement from last year is pretty unlikely. Feel free to keep your irrational hatred for the mariners up but they seem to have done pretty well with the guy they got back in the deal and developed him just fine.

So what he is 27. That is not old to develop. Besides he has good stuff already. Burnett developed into a "pitcher" (instead of throwing heats, he learnt how to mixed it up and with "new" pitches) while with the jays and he was 30 then. Morrow just needs to keep it consistent over a long stretch and that comes with experience and patience as well as proper development. I do not hate the mariners, get over it. You seem to think they were developing morrow well and you believe in their coaches' decision to make him a closer. Yikes. I am telling you the mariners are way off on morrow as well as other failures in developing pitchers.


this is an argument that is not worth having on here but i am sure the yankees, red sox and rays are shaking in their boots worrying about having the face the mighty jays in the future.

They may not be shaking in their boots right now but they sure are paying attention of what the jays have in the system and what they can become in the near future.

[Sylvanfan]

Pineda and Felix Hernandez totally prove the Mariners can't develop pitching.

I don't think the other Al east teams are scared by the Jays. Tampa has way better pitching, and the Yankees and Red Sox have the resources to get better when they feel they have to.

[moon]

It is not me that needs to get over the past it is Blue Jays analysts that are saying the things that I am. I am sure that you know more than them and you know better than what Morrow has shown on the field but there is a reason why the guy has a .500 record and has had a lot of trouble getting out of the 4th inning at times. It is because he struggles with consistency with his pitches.

I never commented on the Mariners other than it is somewhat laughable at how much blame you put on them when he hasn't shown a whole lot in terms of development since joining the Jays. And while 27 isn't old too develop some it is unlikely he is going to consistently dominate as you predict.

Anyways you have made it clear that despite what Morrow has shown and despite what analysts that watch the Jays all year long and are paid to make evaluations you know more than them and the evidence.

[VERVE]

Originally Posted by moon

It is not me that needs to get over the past it is Blue Jays analysts that are saying the things that I am. I am sure that you know more than them and you know better than what Morrow has shown on the field but there is a reason why the guy has a .500 record and has had a lot of trouble getting out of the 4th inning at times. It is because he struggles with consistency with his pitches.

On the contrary, Blue Jays analyst seemed to say that Morrow can an effective starter if he gains more experience and confidence during his development. I have been stating that his inconsistencies are hurtimg him due in part of his inexperience.

I never commented on the Mariners other than it is somewhat laughable at how much blame you put on them when he hasn't shown a whole lot in terms of development since joining the Jays. And while 27 isn't old too develop some it is unlikely he is going to consistently dominate as you predict.

I am just repeating myself about the Mariners-read my last 3 posts. On the contrary, Morrow has dominated when he is consistent- experience and conifidence will come and when it comes together, he will be dominating. Did you not see today's game vs Yankees, not many clubs will shut them down and blank them like Morrow did today and he is 2-0 this season facing Yankees.

Anyways you have made it clear that despite what Morrow has shown and despite what analysts that watch the Jays all year long and are paid to make evaluations you know more than them and the evidence.

You see I follow the Jays like you follow the Flames. You are wrong about the Blue Jays. I have already said Morrow has not shown consistency all season but when he is on he is unbeatable. The Jays' analysts -not the newspaper writers or radio guys- the ones who once played baseball for a living have commented on how Morrow needs a bit of time and experience to develop his confidence and focus. He has commanding stuff already, they said he needs to focus and work on his location. Then he will be dominating consistently. I have been following the Jays since their expansion years and listen and read about their goods and bads. I am not trying to be a know-it -all but if you had read my last 5-7 posts, you know I am not just spouting crap off the top of my head.
[/QUOTE]

[moon]

First off what is with the stupid font color?

Second, how is Ashby not a former player and analyst?

[VERVE]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Pineda and Felix Hernandez totally prove the Mariners can't develop pitching.

I don't think the other Al east teams are scared by the Jays. Tampa has way better pitching, and the Yankees and Red Sox have the resources to get better when they feel they have to.

I have already stated with the exception of Hernandez, Mariners have not developed depth in pitching for awhile. I agree, Pineda is going to be good. He just started to be a regular starter this season coming from the minors.

No, the AL east are not scared of the Jays ..for now. They are paying close attention of what AA is doing with all the trades, pickups and draft picks. Tampa have developed their pitchers well. No one in the AL east will compete with the BoSox and Yankees in terms of offereing big contracts. The Rays and Jays are doing it mainly through the drafts and reasonable trade route.

I believe there is a window of opportunity in 2-3 years time for the Jays, where the the Bo Sox and Yankees may not be in a position of dominance despite their resources. Who knows, when the Jays are in that position to be contenders, the Rogers comm owners may increase their budget just to compete on an even playing field wiith the Big Boys and buy some players just to bring them over the top.

Remember in the nineties when the Jays had one of the biggest budget in MLB even greater than those of Yankees and BoSox.

[VERVE]

Originally Posted by moon

First off what is with the stupid font color?

Second, how is Ashby not a former player and analyst?

Relax stop fussing like a woman. Who the hell cares about font colors-read the darn posts. I was referring to your Bob Elliot-a newspaper writer.

[moon]

Originally Posted by VERVE

Relax stop fussing like a woman. Who the hell cares about font colors-read the darn posts. I was referring to your Bob Elliot-a newspaper writer.

I am not fussing like a woman it is an annoting font to read and there is a reason why 99% of posters use black to post.

So then you are just ignoring Ashby because it doesn't fit with what you want to be said.

Also Zaun has suggested that they should at least consider Morrow as closer as well, but I guess he doesn't matter either right?

[VERVE]

Originally Posted by moon

I am not fussing like a woman it is an annoting font to read and there is a reason why 99% of posters use black to post.

So then you are just ignoring Ashby because it doesn't fit with what you want to be said.

Also Zaun has suggested that they should at least consider Morrow as closer as well, but I guess he doesn't matter either right?

To be honest, I am somewhat new on the site and haven't had time to practice reponding to the mutli quote process. My eyes are blurry from staring at the screen, out of kindness to my fellow posters, I thought this it would be easier to read. I have tried to use the multi quote but failed (so much for my post secondary training).

Zaun is a fine analyst. I don't believe I have ever heard him say that. I guess if he did, we have a difference in our opinions. I believe in the assessments of Martinez and his usual color side kick (whose name escapes me) as well as John Farrell and AA. I have to run but it was nice discussing baseball in the summer for a change. I found this "other sport" forum just yesterday. My friend, we will duel again....GTG

[moon]

Originally Posted by VERVE

To be honest, I am somewhat new on the site and haven't had time to practice reponding to the mutli quote process. My eyes are blurry from staring at the screen, out of kindness to my fellow posters, I thought this it would be easier to read. I have tried to use the multi quote but failed (so much for my post secondary training).

If you want to break up a quote into multiple posts, which I think is what you mean, you have to add the quotes (at the top of the box when quoting looks like a speech bubble) to the text yourself.

Zaun is a fine analyst. I don't believe I have ever heard him say that. I guess if he did, we have a difference in our opinions. I believe in the assessments of Martinez and his usual color side kick (whose name escapes me) as well as John Farrell and AA. I have to run but it was nice discussing baseball in the summer for a change. I found this "other sport" forum just yesterday. My friend, we will duel again....GTG

Zaun didn't say that he should be moved just that they may have to think about it. It was on Prime Time Sports in one of his talks with Mccown.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by moon

IN what world does Morrow locate his pitches very well

K/9: 10.2
BB/9: 3.4


But he does miss;

Originally Posted by bluebirdbanter.com

Indeed, Morrow is substantially better at inducing ground balls when the bases are empty, and hitters have been much more likely to hit fly balls when runners are on, suggesting that he perhaps may have trouble keeping the ball down when pitching from the stretch. That is consistent with what I've observed. It could also mean that Morrow is pitching for the strikeout more with runners on, leading to more fly balls, but Brandon's K rates don't support that theory

Seems like a reasonable conclusion; one that may be more of a strategy than a flaw.
Between this analysis and the pitch f/x data suggesting he is moving away from his 3/4/5 pitches and focusing on 1/2 - maybe having him close isn't the worst idea in the world.

I still think it's a lousy idea until the Jays have 5 other starters with even one pitch as strong as Morrow's fastball and slider - which is probably never.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Gozer

K/9: 10.2
BB/9: 3.4


But he does miss;

I wonder how much of that is skewed by his great games.

I think when he is on he obviously locates great, but when he is off he really struggles with location of his pitches.

Seems like a reasonable conclusion; one that may be more of a strategy than a flaw.
Between this analysis and the pitch f/x data suggesting he is moving away from his 3/4/5 pitches and focusing on 1/2 - maybe having him close isn't the worst idea in the world.

I still think it's a lousy idea until the Jays have 5 other starters with even one pitch as strong as Morrow's fastball and slider - which is probably never.

I think that overall he is probably more valuable as 3rd (if you can get two guys better) for the Jays as they can probably find someone to close easier than getting a 3rd starter.

[dustyanddaflames]

I don't think there is any denying the fact that Morrow has great stuff, but the fact that he can't reign it in from start to start, really makes me wonder if this is all Brandon Morrow will ever be. A good starter, who is can never string together more than two or three quality starts.

Morrow has pitched into the 8th inning three times this year. He has also failed to get out of the 4th inning five times. I think this is what Morrow really is, a guy who when he has his "A" stuff is very dominating, but can't get by without it. The only thing stopping Morrow from being a 2 in any MLB rotation, is his lack of consistancy.

EDIT: For the record I still think Morrow is better suited to be in a MLB starting rotation, it is just that the Blue Jays need to find better options for their 2/3 starters. I wouldn't hesitate to have Morrow taking the bump every 5 days, just not sure he is a great option going forward for a "future" post-season rotation.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Couple more RBI for Arencibia. 2nd in HR and RBI amongst AL rookies all while playing a tough position. Certainly will get some consideration for AL rookie of the year, but probably won't win.

[VERVE]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

Couple more RBI for Arencibia. 2nd in HR and RBI amongst AL rookies all while playing a tough position. Certainly will get some consideration for AL rookie of the year, but probably won't win.

You are probably right most likely because of the fact that he is in TO. Unless he was producing phenomenally outrageous, he will not get the nod.

[flames_fan_down_under]

How about Drabek's line tonight:

2 IP 7H 6ER 1BB

Guy has lost his confidence completely.

[ricoFlame]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

How about Drabek's line tonight:

2 IP 7H 6ER 1BB

Guy has lost his confidence completely.

He's got time, probably came up too soon in his career.

[ricoFlame]

Originally Posted by VERVE

You are probably right most likely because of the fact that he is in TO. Unless he was producing phenomenally outrageous, he will not get the nod.

the big difference between his rookie season and Hinske's ROY season is AVG and on base percentage.

[VERVE]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

How about Drabek's line tonight:

2 IP 7H 6ER 1BB

Guy has lost his confidence completely.

Not impressive but he is young and relatively inexperienced in the bigs and sure confidence is a huge factor esp at this stage of his learning curve. Not worry though, he has great stuff...