Any security videos for gas stations and/or hotels probably aren't running 30 frames per second video. A couple of frames per second max. A plane flying in at full speed may not even show up on a frame, just like it didn't show up on a frame from the pentagon security camera. And at that, the cameras would be pointed at the gas pumps, with the pentagon maybe only visible in the corner of the picture.
I really doubt there is any security tapes of real value.
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There was no vetting of information prior to 9/11, that was the problem, information never escaped from these agencies to be combined into a entire threat analysis.
Thats the problem, thats why we've seen an attempt to reform the CIA by placing military leadership there.
The NSA for example isn't going to care at all about aircraft parts and papers, they're going to care about signal intelligence, so in terms of the investigation, they were intercepting all kinds of communication intel between Al Queda elements before and after 9/11 occured.
They won't process anything but signals, just like NGIA wouldn't really have a roll in the investigation at all unless a Satellite shows some image of Bin Laden holding up a sign that said I did it.
Would DIA care, sure, but they would be suborned to the FBI in this care because one of the big FBI mandates involves terrorist attacks in America, and they hold jurisdiction on that.
But I've never disagreed with what your saying about the sharing of information, but I'm not sure I understand how it waters down to the FBI doing the initial onsite investigation?
CC, until you work in the USIC and determine just what kind of collected intelligence an agency analyzes, your guess is no better than mine. For the record, the NGA (not NGIA, i apologize) collects GEOINT, which includes imagery, mapping and other techniques on stationary and moving data. There is little doubt the NGA investigated the pattern of the airliner that hit the Pentagon, its elevations, its path, its relation to other objects, and so on. As for the NSA, evidence collected by the FBI directly pertains to them - they have even declared that all foreign intelligence activities to be collected within the borders of the USA will be collected by the FBI, which heightens their linkages together. See the US' Executive Order 12333.
I'm going directly off of their mandate which covers Aeronautical intelligence gathering, Maritime Navigation and mission planning for the DND. I would think that FAA investigators would be the experts in terms of crash effects and patterns. We're not really arguing on the last sentence where the FBI has jurisdiction and any relevant data would come to them for analysis. But I fail to see how signal intelligence pertains to crash residue on the ground. You could argue that if there was communication between the planes for example and an Al Queda source that they would be involved in that, but there wasn't. There was however communication before 9/11 as a coordination point, and immediately after when Al Queda was sending congratulations to each other through the internet and Satellite tecnology.
The DIA is more focused on threat analysis, so any data that comes out that indicates future possible threats would be their mandate which would be shared by the FBI, but I don't see how they would be involved in investigating a crash site.
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I'm going directly off of their mandate which covers Aeronautical intelligence gathering, Maritime Navigation and mission planning for the DND. I would think that FAA investigators would be the experts in terms of crash effects and patterns. We're not really arguing on the last sentence where the FBI has jurisdiction and any relevant data would come to them for analysis. But I fail to see how signal intelligence pertains to crash residue on the ground. You could argue that if there was communication between the planes for example and an Al Queda source that they would be involved in that, but there wasn't. There was however communication before 9/11 as a coordination point, and immediately after when Al Queda was sending congratulations to each other through the internet and Satellite tecnology.
The DIA is more focused on threat analysis, so any data that comes out that indicates future possible threats would be their mandate which would be shared by the FBI, but I don't see how they would be involved in investigating a crash site.
CC, the NGA is not just about signal intelligence; it collects geospatial intelligence, whether that is collected through satellites, aircraft, databases, or whatever. I'm sure the FBI worked with the FAA on these matters; but to say the NSA wasn't involved I just can't believe that.
And again, my point that I've made already is that the NSA relies on the FBI to conduct homeland foreign intelligence activities, which could pertain to signal analysis if need be. Therefore, there two agencies are linked, which then implicates the NSA in an overall FBI investigation where such investigation is necessary. This is the point I'm making, which ties back to the argument made earlier in this thread that any other agency's involvement in the Pentagon clean-up is "insignificant". It just isn't, as these agencies are tied together for collection and analysis. This is my high-level point.
Also, this photo confuses the f### out of me . . . What the heck was going on here at the Pentagon crash site?
That is how you search for something in the military (or when they look for missing kids with a large group of people etc). You stand shoulder to shoulder and advance in a line. They're probably looking for pieces of plane or other evidence.
That is how you search for something in the military (or when they look for missing kids with a large group of people etc). You stand shoulder to shoulder and advance in a line. They're probably looking for pieces of plane or other evidence.
Worth - I'm going to say that judging on the shadows in the photo versus when the plane hit, that was no more than 1-2 hours after the plane actually hit. Is this normal to do so quickly on such a huge disaster area??
Its pretty essential they needed to find and label every piece of evidence on the crash site before parts got trampled or accidentilly moved or wrecked.
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Its pretty essential they needed to find and label every piece of evidence on the crash site before parts got trampled or accidentilly moved or wrecked.
I'd like to also be more reassured that there were more cameras filming arguably the most important military installation in the world. I also find it really skeptical that more footage hasn't been released, if there were more cameras.
I've also heard that the Marriott Hotel had a camera facing that exact part of the Pentagon, which was promptly confiscated and never released publicly.
Simply showing footage that clearly shows a plane smacking into the Pentagon would alleviate all concerns - without question.
In the age of technology, I just find it strange that the best footage we have of the most devastaing terrorist attack in the history of America on the most prolific military installation in the world is grainy, choppy, unrecognizable footage from a gas station.
Its pretty essential they needed to find and label every piece of evidence on the crash site before parts got trampled or accidentilly moved or wrecked.
That's what I would guess as well, although I'm not an expert.
All I know is I did it a few times in the field in Wainwright during basic training. Someone would lose the firing pin out of their rifle while doing a weapon tear down in the field. They'd stop the whole platoon, make us put our gas masks on, and crawl us the prone position for what seemed like a couple of hours going over the same area looking for the stupid thing. And of course, someone found the pin in the first 5 minutes of searching and gave it to our Platoon Seargent, but they would just make us crawl around for fun in 30 degree weather with masks on looking for nothing.
That's what I would guess as well, although I'm not an expert.
All I know is I did it a few times in the field in Wainwright during basic training. Someone would lose the firing pin out of their rifle while doing a weapon tear down in the field. They'd stop the whole platoon, make us put our gas masks on, and crawl us the prone position for what seemed like a couple of hours going over the same area looking for the stupid thing. And of course, someone found the pin in the first 5 minutes of searching and gave it to our Platoon Seargent, but they would just make us crawl around for fun in 30 degree weather with masks on looking for nothing.
Let me guess, you came in after the FN C1 A1 generation.
But yeah, I remember activities like that with less then fondness.
I remember in my last year a little girl vanished in Banff, and our unit was just finishing up a mountain comms excercise, and they pulled us in to see if we could help find her, and we had to do that walk through every muck filled misquito ridden field in Banff.
It would take over an hour to go half the length of a football field, shuffling along while staring just ahead of your feet.
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Worth - I'm going to say that judging on the shadows in the photo versus when the plane hit, that was no more than 1-2 hours after the plane actually hit. Is this normal to do so quickly on such a huge disaster area??
Joe Schmoe police chief rarely has 23,000 trained military 'volunteers' at his disposal from minute 1, what happened at the Pentagon would probably be considered 'best practise' if all crashes had access to unlimited personel.
Also, I know i'm a page behind but I will add my resistance to the controlled demo theory. When tower 2 falls (the second tower hit, and the first tower to come down) you can clearly see the top of the building fall over. It doesn't fall straight down, and the building doesn't come out from the bottom from what we can tell.
The top section above where the plane has impacted begins to collapse and falls on top of the lower stories. It's plain as day. The bottom stories don't seem to move until the upper floors begin to impact.
All I can deduce from this is that a plane drove through the building, basically severing it in half, the contents of the building burned for an hour weakening the integrity of the already perilous structure which caused the top half of the building to fall over, crushing the rest of the building on it's way down.
Someone please correct me if I have any wrong information here.
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Joe Schmoe police chief rarely has 23,000 trained military 'volunteers' at his disposal from minute 1, what happened at the Pentagon would probably be considered 'best practise' if all crashes had access to unlimited personel.
I guess I'm just surprised they let civilian investigators sweep the area of evidence so quickly, considering an enormous, dangerous crime scene with the potential for further building collapse and/or jet fuel explosion was literally burning right next to them. I would have to think that sweeping the area during those intense moments of first-responders of fire, police, etc. would get in the way of saving lives and controlling the disaster.
Ozy, how do you know it's not the following day, September 12? Maybe this screen cap is from a week after? They could have cordoned off the whole area until the fires were out and had available personnel to search it. I have no idea, i'm just looking for the simplest answer. I think a lot of you guys are reaching here, there are people searching the grounds for evidence. That's how you do it. I don't see how this affiliates the Pentagon with an adverse plan.
I'd like to also be more reassured that there were more cameras filming arguably the most important military installation in the world. I also find it really skeptical that more footage hasn't been released, if there were more cameras.
I've also heard that the Marriott Hotel had a camera facing that exact part of the Pentagon, which was promptly confiscated and never released publicly.
Simply showing footage that clearly shows a plane smacking into the Pentagon would alleviate all concerns - without question.
In the age of technology, I just find it strange that the best footage we have of the most devastaing terrorist attack in the history of America on the most prolific military installation in the world is grainy, choppy, unrecognizable footage from a gas station.
I doubt you can take a whiz inside the building without being filmed, and all the of the entrances are, I'm sure, also filmed, but conversly the very security of the building means I doubt they had many cameras outside at all, the exterior of the building is well patrolled by their security, you cant get onto the grounds without passing a gate with a security guard etc, there really was/is no need for the usual cameras that supermarkets or offices put in their car parks to reduce car theft or the like.
