The original ending of Return (Revenge) of the Jedi before Lucas was driven mad by toy sales and the pandering to children which continued for the rest of his life.
“We had an outline and George changed everything in it,” Kurtz said. “Instead of bittersweet and poignant he wanted a euphoric ending with everybody happy. The original idea was that they would recover [the kidnapped] Han Solo in the early part of the story and that he would then die in the middle part of the film in a raid on an Imperial base. George then decided he didn’t want any of the principals killed. By that time there were really big toy sales and that was a reason.”
The discussed ending of the film that Kurtz favored presented the rebel forces in tatters, Leia grappling with her new duties as queen and Luke walking off alone “like Clint Eastwood in the spaghetti westerns,” as Kurtz put it.
Kurtz said that ending would have been a more emotionally nuanced finale to an epic adventure than the forest celebration of the Ewoks that essentially ended the trilogy with a teddy bear luau.
Last edited by Hack&Lube; 09-05-2011 at 02:03 PM.
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Hack&Lube For This Useful Post:
I seem to recall at the time that they wanted to still use the puppet as an homage to Frank Oz or something something...I can't remember half the crap Muren said in the special features on TPM. What was probably closer to the truth is that they weren't confident enough in the technology to deliver a performance from as important a character as Yoda.
The original ending of Return (Revenge) of the Jedi before Lucas was driven mad by toy sales and the pandering to children which continued for the rest of his life.
I don't know, that would have been a really stupid ending.
I think that people forget that Lucas envisioned these films as a salute to the serials of the 40's and 50's where the hero's usually won in the end.
While the Ewok thing would have been better with the original idea of using Wookies, the ending was what it should have been.
Vader redeemed, the hero's victorious and evil vanquished.
Having an ending where Luke goes off depressed and alone, the Rebels are screwed is stupid.
Star Wars was envisioned as a salute to Flash Gordon serials. Once Empire came out, the tone for the trilogy changed completely.
Nobody said that Vader wasn't going to be redeemed but Luke is still a very troubled individual who walks off into the sunset until he can find himself.
The rebels being in tatters is perfect. The entire Empire is still out there, the rebels were nothing but a rag tag bunch the whole time. The Roman Empire did not fall in one day to a bunch of teddy bears and Asterix and Obelix. The conflict should have lasted decades if not centuries.
I loved RoTJ as a kid, but as an adult, even as a teenager, I realized it was absolute crap.
Plus having the Empire still around would have left it open for even more sequels!
Wait, on second thought maybe it is better that the empire was crushed.
But the Empire wasn't crushed. All they did was just lose another Death Star which after losing the first one, doesn't seem like a big deal to them. They also lost the Emperor, but knowing him, he probably has a bunch of evil clones hanging around.
The rebels achieved a small victory but the entire empire still exists as the major force in the galaxy. Until the Rebels conquer Coruscant, nothing has really changed.
The Following User Says Thank You to Hack&Lube For This Useful Post:
What was Luke suppossed to be troubled about. He'd had the Faustian battle for his father soul with the devil and he'd won. Not only had he won but his father had in the end redeemed himself and returned to the light side.
He had saved his friends and resisted the fall to the dark side that he'd feared.
The ultimate symbol of evil in the Emperor was dead, unless you count the really ######ed EU Empires end. The symbol of opression in the Death Star was destroyed.
In the end Luke had it all, he knew his father was saved and with his friends, all of his friends had survived and the Emperor was in effect leaderless.
And while the Empire was still there, the one key thing that we saw were multiple Imperial Planets being overthrown.
In terms of the 40's Flash Gordon or Buck Roger's serials, it was pretty much established that if you killed the evil leader (Ming the Merciless) the evil that he created would crumble.
There might have been an empire left but it was leaderless, there was now no real need to fear them as much as the Rebels had taken out its leaders and symbols. What did the Empire have left? Millions of Storm Troopers who couldn't hit the side of the barn, and a bunch of leaders who stood by the windows while muttering "Good our first catch of the day"
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
But the Empire wasn't crushed. All they did was just lose another Death Star which after losing the first one, doesn't seem like a big deal to them. They also lost the Emperor, but knowing him, he probably has a bunch of evil clones hanging around.
The rebels achieved a small victory but the entire empire still exists as the major force in the galaxy. Until the Rebels conquer Coruscant, nothing has really changed.
You definitely took my attempt at humour way too literally.
And I have no idea what the #### Coruscant is. To me there are only 3 pieces of official SW cannon. SW, Empire and Return.
Last edited by Cecil Terwilliger; 09-05-2011 at 02:27 PM.
But the Empire wasn't crushed. All they did was just lose another Death Star which after losing the first one, doesn't seem like a big deal to them. They also lost the Emperor, but knowing him, he probably has a bunch of evil clones hanging around.
The rebels achieved a small victory but the entire empire still spans that part of the galaxy and still exists. Until the Rebels conquer Coruscant, nothing has really changed.
Ugh the whole EU and Palpatine's clones was one of the worst comics that I ever read.
The Rebel's didn't need to overthrow Coruscant, we saw the overthrow happening with the people pulling down Palpatine's statue.
The Empire was still there but there wasn't really the need or want to make another set of sequels where they fight a face less enemy. People point to the Heir trilogy of books where they created a Grand Admiral and the first time I read that series I thought that it would have made a great sequel movie trilogy, but then I read them again recently and realized that the infallible Grand Admiral Thrawn lost every single notable engagment not only with the Rebels but every rag tag smuggler and alien race in that series.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
What was Luke suppossed to be troubled about. He'd had the Faustian battle for his father soul with the devil and he'd won. Not only had he won but his father had in the end redeemed himself and returned to the light side.
He had saved his friends and resisted the fall to the dark side that he'd feared.
The ultimate symbol of evil in the Emperor was dead, unless you count the really ######ed EU Empires end. The symbol of opression in the Death Star was destroyed.
In the end Luke had it all, he knew his father was saved and with his friends, all of his friends had survived and the Emperor was in effect leaderless.
And while the Empire was still there, the one key thing that we saw were multiple Imperial Planets being overthrown.
In terms of the 40's Flash Gordon or Buck Roger's serials, it was pretty much established that if you killed the evil leader (Ming the Merciless) the evil that he created would crumble.
There might have been an empire left but it was leaderless, there was now no real need to fear them as much as the Rebels had taken out its leaders and symbols. What did the Empire have left? Millions of Storm Troopers who couldn't hit the side of the barn, and a bunch of leaders who stood by the windows while muttering "Good our first catch of the day"
Luke will never be the same kid in white pajamas he was in Star Wars again. He's irrevocably changed by the events happening here. My favorite Star Wars stories as a kid were the comics from the 90s that take place after ROTJ with Luke on the verge of falling to the temptations and power of the Dark Side again as the only way to finally rid the galaxy of the Empire. That power is tempting and once touched by it, he can never truly be rid of it. I think that is a much more adult message and much more satisfying and realistic than everyone lives happily ever after. I never cared for Flash Gorden (except for Defenders of the Earth cartoons as a kid) or happy ending 1940s serials. Lucas just loved them because they were his childhood. We all love what is in our childhood but it doesn't mean that they remain meaningful or stand up as well crafted stories when we become adults. I still love all the cartoons I grew up with for the nostalgia factor but I realize now that they are all silly and absurd and don't need to be celebrated with a new release every 10 years.
The Following User Says Thank You to Hack&Lube For This Useful Post:
What was Luke suppossed to be troubled about. He'd had the Faustian battle for his father soul with the devil and he'd won. Not only had he won but his father had in the end redeemed himself and returned to the light side.
He had saved his friends and resisted the fall to the dark side that he'd feared.
The ultimate symbol of evil in the Emperor was dead, unless you count the really ######ed EU Empires end. The symbol of opression in the Death Star was destroyed.
In the end Luke had it all, he knew his father was saved and with his friends, all of his friends had survived and the Emperor was in effect leaderless.
And while the Empire was still there, the one key thing that we saw were multiple Imperial Planets being overthrown.
In terms of the 40's Flash Gordon or Buck Roger's serials, it was pretty much established that if you killed the evil leader (Ming the Merciless) the evil that he created would crumble.
There might have been an empire left but it was leaderless, there was now no real need to fear them as much as the Rebels had taken out its leaders and symbols. What did the Empire have left? Millions of Storm Troopers who couldn't hit the side of the barn, and a bunch of leaders who stood by the windows while muttering "Good our first catch of the day"
Well much of that would of been changed if they had gone with the darker ending proposed in Hack's post. If Han was dead, the Rebellion was in tatters, and Leia struggling to rule, I am sure Luke would of had a reason to believe he failed even if he were to redeem his father. That and I always assumed that the evil powers of the force are sort of like the "One Ring" in Lord of the Rings, you can never truly defeat such power within. Which is why all those who had worn the ring were sent out West where no one could find them in the end.
I for one like parts of the proposed darker ending (killing off Han), but I agree that the the rebels winning out in the end was the right direction to go in. If only they could of done something about the Ewok's, to this day most fans (including me) are still angered that they could play such a large part in overthrowing the Empire. They brought in Ewok's over Wookie's as a cost issue, but that doesn't make sense to me as Star Wars was already a billion dollar franchise by the time Jedi was being filmed, and cost shouldn't have been an issue. I am sure there are other reasons why they chose Ewok's over Wookie's, but I can barely stand the Endor scenes anymore, as it destroys a lot of the credibility the Empire had.
To me Return of the Jedi is the Temple of Doom of the Indiana Jones Trilogy. Still pretty good on its one right, but not a classic when compared to the other entries in the original series. The Ewok's are the Kate Capshaw of the original trilogy. One wonders how Return of the Jedi would of been if Spielberg were allowed to direct...
Last edited by trackercowe; 09-05-2011 at 02:38 PM.
Quite honestly, I have zero desire to ever watch Star Wars again. I like the universe that Star Wars created and there is a lot of potential for great storytelling in there, but I don't care for any of the films or comics or novels or any of the stuff out there anymore because it's been done over and over so much and for me, Lucasfilm and Fox constantly putting out new editions every 10 years is just like Disney reprinting Bambi and Snow White over and over again and saying: "we've opened the Disney Vault again for a limited time only!" except that they keep changing stuff to the point where one day, Bambi's mom won't die anymore.
I don't get why people care about the integrity of the originals so much (even the original versions are highly flawed) but I get why people think everything could have been better and why people think Lucas is a bozo. I think enhancements can be a good thing...unfortunately, all the enhancements and additions are crap and don't add anything meaningful. The whole 6 movies (well, maybe minus ANH and ESB) should just be remade from scratch with a vastly changed story.
I just wish all the money and attention spent on Star Wars being recycled over and over would be spent on giving us other science fiction franchises that were actually decent.
For those that are interested, Bestbuy.ca has the blu-ray box set for the cheapest I have seen in the Canada or the US: 67.99 with free delivery. Only for the next 17 hours during their Labor Day Sale.
Sorry for the interruption, feel free to continue the discussion/venting.
I for one like parts of the proposed darker ending (killing off Han), but I agree that the the rebels winning out in the end was the right direction to go in. If only they could of done something about the Ewok's, to this day most fans (including me) are still angered that they could play such a large part in overthrowing the Empire. They brought in Ewok's over Wookie's as a cost issue, but that doesn't make sense to me as Star Wars was already a billion dollar franchise by the time Jedi was being filmed, and cost shouldn't have been an issue. I am sure there are other reasons why they chose Ewok's over Wookie's, but I can barely stand the Endor scenes anymore, as it destroys a lot of the credibility the Empire had.
The Ewoks weren't brought in as a cost issue. Lucas was enamored with the idea that a primitive tribe could overthrow the technological empire (just like the native indians defeated the europeans? oh wait... that never happened).
He originally wanted the Wookies but Chewie demonstrated that the Wookies were a technical race and weren't as primitive as he wanted so in his infallible Lucas logic, he decided that since Wookies were tall, he would just make a bunch of short furries and move the "E" from the end of the name to the front. Ewok = Ewooki.
Or at least that's what Wikipedia says.
The Following User Says Thank You to Hack&Lube For This Useful Post:
While I agree with the points above, I always thought it was called Return of the Jedi, because the Jedi finally had a leader and a direction again and ultimately defeated Vader and the emperor.
The Jedi Order had returned after being purged and destroyed by the sith.
The Jedi Order hadn't returned, though. At the end of RotJ, there's literally only one Jedi remaining, and he's only just barely finished his training. There's no council, no masters, no temple, no trainees, no "younglings", nothing. It always seemed obvious to me that the title referred to the fallen hero Anakin returning to the Jedi.
The Ewoks weren't brought in as a cost issue. Lucas was enamored with the idea that a primitive tribe could overthrow the technological empire (just like the native indians defeated the europeans? oh wait... that never happened).
IIRC, Lucas wanted it to be a metaphor for the Vietnam War, with the Empire playing the part of the United States and the Ewoks and Rebels standing in for the Viet Cong.
The Following User Says Thank You to MarchHare For This Useful Post:
The Jedi Order hadn't returned, though. At the end of RotJ, there's literally only one Jedi remaining, and he's only just barely finished his training. There's no council, no masters, no temple, no trainees, no "younglings", nothing. It always seemed obvious to me that the title referred to the fallen hero Anakin returning to the Jedi.
The interwebs have returned mixed results, so I'm going to declare it a tie.
Not only does the title refer to Anakin saying FU to the dark side and being a jedi again but it also refers to the return of the Jedi order in the form of Luke and Leia.
The interwebs have returned mixed results, so I'm going to declare it a tie.
Not only does the title refer to Anakin saying FU to the dark side and being a jedi again but it also refers to the return of the Jedi order in the form of Luke and Leia.
Leia isn't a Jedi though. She's just in the family.
