Bulbs first, flatscreens second, vacuum cleaners next?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I definitely agree with this. As energy prices rise, people become naturally more energy conscious. If that's the case, regulation of this type starts becoming unnecessary.

As long as the cost of the negative externalities are built into the cost of electricity (and it's alternatives), that's what I'd go with. Failing that, I'd prefer a tax on incandescent bulbs to account for the difference than an outright ban. Same for higher power TV, high-flush toilets (replace electricity with water), high power vacuums...

[Wormius]

I think the concept of cost incentives being the driving force shouldn't be enforced by making the unenvironmentally friendly choice more expensive, but making the eco options cheaper than everything else. If an energy efficient appliances were cheaper, or CFLs were cheaper than the alternatives then people would buy in. I don't think economics will allow this though - its just cheaper to build systems that are inefficient, and most people don't think about the long term impact of paying a higher electricity bill or buying more cheap incandescent bulbs than a single long-lasting CFL.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by SebC

As long as the cost of the negative externalities are built into the cost of electricity (and it's alternatives), that's what I'd go with. Failing that, I'd prefer a tax on incandescent bulbs to account for the difference than an outright ban. Same for higher power TV, high-flush toilets (replace electricity with water), high power vacuums...

We need these. I think this is something that needs to be worked out better. They need a lot of double-flushing to get some stuff down.

[ma-skis.com]

Originally Posted by Wormius

We need these. I think this is something that needs to be worked out better. They need a lot of double-flushing to get some stuff down.

you should try one of the toto brand toilets, they are very impressive in terms of low water use verses ability to move stuff down

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Speaking of energy used to heat houses...

Is anyone in favor of regulating thermostat temperatures? If the government mandated you could only heat your house to 16 degrees centigrade, we'd save a lot of natural gas. (Assorted green house gas and environmental benefits due to less drilling)

The government certainly could pass a law like that. It'd be difficult to enforce, but it's probably nothing that random checks of your house's internal temperature and large fines couldn't solve. 16 is plenty warm enough for sustaining human life, and we could use the savings to buy fair trade sweaters.

Mmmm.... government enforced environmental benefits for all.

(While I realize I'm encroaching on reductio ad absurdum here, the question of "where's the line" for government enforced energy savings is still open)

The difference between that and the use of CFL bulbs, is that the use of the CFL bulbs makes no difference in quality of life. I have switched over all but a few of my bulbs to CFL. Yes, the older bulbs take a second to come on, so those share a fixture with a newer CFL that is "instant on." That way there is light right away, and within 2 seconds you have full light.

Same with the arguement about regulating TV use- that becomes a "taking away quality of life" issue.

As for bulb life; my CFL bulbs bought in ~2003 are finally starting to die off. I have replaced 2 bulbs bought around 2007, and another couple died within hours of being installed. (Generic bulbs.)

Price- I wait until I see them on sale. Home Depot often puts brand name ones on sale- 6 bulbs for $10. The only ones of those that have died were ones I dropped.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Same with the arguement about regulating TV use- that becomes a "taking away quality of life" issue.

You're right - it would enhance the quality of a lot of lives. As an added bonus it would save tax payers millions of dollars by reducing stress on our health care system.

Various levels of government put all kinds of restrictions on our lives to ensure a healthy and safe population (food/drug bans, seat belts, etc.) I don't feel it's that out of line to suggest a limit on TV could be a good thing for the population of Canada.

I'm only half kidding... I do however feel that sometimes you need to stop and ask when do you draw the line? The majority of you don't seem to care so that leads me to believe the line hasn't been crossed yet. But, when that line does gets crossed will it be too late?

Apparently I'm buying the wrong bulbs - I prefer the light from an incandescent bulb.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by ken0042

The difference between that and the use of CFL bulbs, is that the use of the CFL bulbs makes no difference in quality of life.

I'm glad you've been able to decide that switching to CFLs would make no difference to my quality of life. It's so nice when someone else is able to make these decisions for me, really takes the pressure off.

[Daradon]

I seriously don't get what the big problem is with using energy saving bulbs. And I have a sneaking suspicion the people who complain about them haven't bought one I a while if ever. There are many different kinds that give you different types of light. Soft light, warm light, bright light. And they do last quite a while. Perhaps there were problems with them years ago, but they seemed to be resolved now.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Daradon

I seriously don't get what the big problem is with using energy saving bulbs. And I have a sneaking suspicion the people who complain about them haven't bought one I a while if ever. There are many different kinds that give you different types of light. Soft light, warm light, bright light. And they do last quite a while. Perhaps there were problems with them years ago, but they seemed to be resolved now.

Actually I have bought them, and only decided against buying more in the past 4-5 months or so. Even after this thread where people have shown the math I have to say I'm skeptical. Maybe I would have a different thought on this in the dead of winter when the lights are on more? I just don't find myself realizing large savings from lightbulbs though, but I definitely see the cost difference.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Slava

Actually I have bought them, and only decided against buying more in the past 4-5 months or so. Even after this thread where people have shown the math I have to say I'm skeptical. Maybe I would have a different thought on this in the dead of winter when the lights are on more? I just don't find myself realizing large savings from lightbulbs though, but I definitely see the cost difference.

Well I'm not sure how much of ones electric bill comes from lights anyway. So if your looking for large savings to your overall bill, it might be a little disappointing, I can agree with that. But the overall savings are there.

I just meant, I wasn't sure what all the stink was about. It's a light bulb. It's really not that big a deal. You try and get a country or society to make some good decisions in regards to energy and the environment and people throw out the communism card. It's funny really.

Regulations have been used for many many different things though free countries for many many reasons. Sometimes they are supplier side, sometimes they are buyer side. Sometimes they have to do with rules. There are plenty of regulations that say what a person can or cannot buy, can or cannot do, when and under what circumstances. To make such a stink about a few energy saving appliances is just weird to me.

And it's part of the deal in living in society. You want all the good things that come with it, then sometimes you have to put up with some bad things that you feel inconvienace you.

What really gets me about all this 'personal liberty' talk is that people who think that that have to realize that as the world gets smaller that we are responsible for each other in a way. We all breathe the same air, we all drink the same water, we all need clean soil for food that's grown.

For a person to say, 'well, forcing me to make this choice steps on my rights, my liberty, and my quality of life,' but the choice they want to make creates problems for the rest of society, is selfish and short sighted. Sorry, it's not just your air, it's not just your water, and it definitely isn't just your society. You can't choose to have a quality of life that negatively affects others quality of life (obviously you can, but it's not a good argument and it's why standards and laws get put into place).

The same way you can't just dump paint into a storm drain, instead of disposing it properly, new rules and regulations will also come into being.

Like this light bulb thing. And that's really all it is. A way of society figuring out whats fair for everyone, because we do have to share so many things that we ALL have a right to.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I'm glad you've been able to decide that switching to CFLs would make no difference to my quality of life. It's so nice when someone else is able to make these decisions for me, really takes the pressure off.

OK, then please tell me what is different about them that affects how you use and/or enjoy the light they give off. Newer CFLs are instant on, are available in whatever colour you want, and provide the same amount of light.

Trust me- I am not an environmetalist. I don't want to derail the thread, so let's just say my views on Climate Change would send Al Gore's head spinning. But CFL bulbs fit into my "what can I do to save money" plan. Same as having a programable thermostat or that I take transit to work. Neither are about me trying to reduce my carbon footprint; they are about me saving money. If it also helps reduce the amount of smoke I put into the air- good.

My problem is that because people have convinced themselves that they are bad, now we have to have a law. I don't want the law; I don't want to have to buy and store a lifetime supply of regular bulbs because many people have old notions about CFLs.

And seeing as I know where the question is coming- where do I still use regular bulbs?
- I have one set of lights in the garage on a motion sensor. The first one in the set needs to be a regular bulb.
- In my trouble light; because CFLs are a little more fragile.
- I have one set of flood lights that get about 4 hours per year of use. Not cost effective for me to replace them.

[SebC]

For me, it's a matter of principle. I prefer pigovian taxes (a.k.a.) "sin taxes" to outright bans. You can spent that money to offset the effects on society but people still have the choice to buy the product.

(If carbon is the problem, then build carbon offsets into the price of the bulbs.)

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by ken0042

OK, then please tell me what is different about them that affects how you use and/or enjoy the light they give off. Newer CFLs are instant on, are available in whatever colour you want, and provide the same amount of light.

I have a couple of lights that continue to burn through CFLs. I don't know what it is about them, but they don't last. Since they're on the ceiling of a room with vaulted ceilings, it's actually a pretty big pain to keep changing them. That is affecting my quality of life.

Ultimately, even if CFLs are exactly the same in every way I think it's reasonable to allow choice. Add a "you're buying something bad" tax if you want, but outlawing them seems extreme.

We allow smoking, which has significant costs to individuals and society (taxes pay for healthcare) with taxation. Are CFLs really worse than tobacco?

[photon]

Poor electricity can shorten their lifespan too, and my ups gives enough bad power warnings in Chestermere that I'd bet it has an impact.

I just tried a dimmable one today (put in new pot light bulbs and got one cfl to try before converting all of them) and while it looks identical full, the colour gets very cool when dimmed.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I have a couple of lights that continue to burn through CFLs. I don't know what it is about them, but they don't last. Since they're on the ceiling of a room with vaulted ceilings, it's actually a pretty big pain to keep changing them. That is affecting my quality of life.

Valid reason to use regular bulbs then. As I said- I have a few places that I use regular bulbs as well.

My problem (and I'm going to pick on you just as an example)- is that you have an issue with a couple of fixtures in your house. You then tell people you know "CFLs are bad- I had to switch back to regular bulbs." Those people hear the same thing from a couple of people, and never try CFLs themselves. Of course people like me don't say anything- it's a pretty boring story for me to talk about the $5 per month I'm saving on electricity.

Then we have a situation where most people are buying regular bulbs, so the gov't steps in and makes a law about what bulbs you can buy. I agree- they should add a tax to regular bulbs to make them more expensive than CFLs.

[photon]

5 bulbs, one of them is a CFL, I can only tell the difference when I dim it so that I can see the shape of the CFL tube inside.

Guess which one has the CFL



The dimming isn't even as bad as I'd first thought, it looks quite blue dimmed when it first turns on but after a minute it's about the same as the other bulbs dimmed.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by photon

5 bulbs, one of them is a CFL, I can only tell the difference when I dim it so that I can see the shape of the CFL tube inside.

Guess which one has the CFL

[snip]

Spoiler!

The dimming isn't even as bad as I'd first thought, it looks quite blue dimmed when it first turns on but after a minute it's about the same as the other bulbs dimmed.

Maybe you should take a proper picture where you don't blow out the highlights first.

[photon]

Let me know where the aperture settings are on the iPhone and I'll tape it to my tripod

[SebC]

Originally Posted by photon

Let me know where the aperture settings are on the iPhone and I'll tape it to my tripod

Don't be silly, a darker exposure reduces the requirement for a tripod.

Seriously though, your argument is highly flawed. I thought you of all people would appreciate that if you're right for the wrong reasons, you're wrong.

[photon]

I made an argument?