Bulbs first, flatscreens second, vacuum cleaners next?

[You Need a Thneed]

I'm sitting in an office right now that's solely lit by warm white LED GU10 bulbs. When we had halogen bulbs installed (10 of them) we were using 500W of power, now we are using 40W of power. At 8 hours a day (they are on that much easily) they use 117 kwh per year. The halogens that we replaced would use 1460 kwh per year.

117 kwh @ $0.08 = $9.36
1460 kwh @ $0.08 = $116.80

A savings of $105 per year, just for one room.

That doesn't even take into account that our air conditioning runs far less often.

[Shasta Beast]

CFL's do suck, they are worse for the environment once disposed.

LED's are even more efficient, and don't have the same toxic elements, they're the real next gen light bulb.

[Slava]

LEDs might be awesome, I have no idea. I just know that CFLs and the associated cost haven't been worth it for me, either in my last home or the ones we put into this one.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Shasta Beast

CFL's do suck, they are worse for the environment once disposed.

LED's are even more efficient, and don't have the same toxic elements, they're the real next gen light bulb.

Actually they aren't worse for the environment.

People get their nose out of joint because of the mercury in CFLs. But guess what, there's far more mercury from burning coal for electricity. On a lifecycle basis there'd be less mercury depositions to the environment from CFLs assuming they all went to the dump and weren't disposed of properly from the net reduction in electricity generation from coal fired electricity.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Slava

LEDs might be awesome, I have no idea. I just know that CFLs and the associated cost haven't been worth it for me, either in my last home or the ones we put into this one.

You should probably run the numbers again there mr. financial planner.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

^^^

let's say you have your bulbs on 8 hours a day on average. A 60W bulb would cost you ~$14 per year per bulb. A 6W LED replacement bulb will cost you $1.40 per year per bulb, and last 10 times as long. I picked up some 6W LED bulbs online for $10 a piece (on sale) a couple of months ago. At that price, I recoup the cost of the bulbs in less than a year, and considering my kitchen has four such bulbs, every year after that, I save $50 in electricity cost. That's just for ONE room in my house.

Wow, you have your lights on an average of 8 hours a day?? I think you should rethink if that is actually true. I'd say you're over estimating. Or maybe you have no windows.

There's one light in my place that is on the most, a 60W lamp bulb and is on an average of 3-4hrs a day. All other lights in our place are on for short periods during a specific task. No lights on during the day ever.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Wow, you have your lights on an average of 8 hours a day?? I think you should rethink if that is actually true. I'd say you're over estimating. Or maybe you have no windows.

There's one light in my place that is on the most, a 60W lamp bulb and is on an average of 3-4hrs a day. All other lights in our place are on for short periods during a specific task. No lights on during the day ever.

I just used 8 hours a day as an example. Lot of people would have SOME lights on for an average of 8 hours per day - adjusted as a per year basis to account for the winter months, when lights are on far longer.

In my house, all the rooms have some natural light, so I don't think that there are any lights that would average 8 hours per day over the whole year. There would definitely be some that average 7-8 hours per day in the winter months, and that's with a well naturally lit house. When the sun goes down at 5 and we go to bed at midnight, that's 7 hours per day right there for the lights in our main area.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

You should probably run the numbers again there mr. financial planner.

Just a tip, but there's ways to get your point across without sounding like a jerkwad.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

You should probably run the numbers again there mr. financial planner.

Maybe you could dumb it down for me?

Lets see though: incandescents cost what $0.50/each? CFLs are about $3.50 a piece....so we're down $3 before you've even hit the switch.

Now have a closer look at your electricity bill. Most of the charges there are not for actual use of the power, but instead charges for delivery and various riders and fees. So how much is your actual power usage each month costing you? I wouldn't want to misquote a figure here and get flamed....but I'm going to say $45/month?

If you can live with those figures then I'm just coming right out and saying that there is no way you are saving $1.00/month per bulb as some people suggest in this thread. I would be paying next to nothing, and you would see the bill for this portion cut in half! Most of that energy use in my house is either the furnace or A/C, along with things like computers, cable boxes, dishwashers, etc. Eventually down the list you get to lightbulbs, but surely this is nowhere near the use of these other things.

So now were examining whether its feasible for me to replace say 25 bulbs at $3.50/each ($87.50) to save a portion of $45/month? Not only that when the bulbs burn out (and they do) your spending another $3.50 instead of the original $0.50 for the incandescent.

So in order to break-even with my back of the envelope calculations you need to save about $75. Then after that you need to have a meaningful impact on my electricity bill. That doesn't mean an entire house switched over to save $1-$2/month. That means trimming the bill enough so that I actually notice and care.....

[Rathji]

^ I do agree that the numbers about how much electricity it takes to run light bulbs and the costs on my bill associated with that energy consumption is out of wack.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Slava

If you can live with those figures then I'm just coming right out and saying that there is no way you are saving $1.00/month per bulb as some people suggest in this thread. I would be paying next to nothing, and you would see the bill for this portion cut in half! Most of that energy use in my house is either the furnace or A/C, along with things like computers, cable boxes, dishwashers, etc. Eventually down the list you get to lightbulbs, but surely this is nowhere near the use of these other things.

It sounds like a lot, but the math doesn't lie. The extra fees are on top of the power usage. For the parts of the fees that are charged as a per kwh cost, it only makes the savings greater.

Let's say that you replace 20 bulbs, of course, some of those bulbs are in rooms that you don't have lights on nearly as much, so let's say that each bulb is on for an average of 3 hours per day, averaged out over the entire year.

For Incandescent Bulbs:

20 bulbs x 60 watts x 3 hours per day x 365 days = 1,314 kwh per year

1314 kwh x $0.08 per kwh = $105.12 per year = $8.76 per month

For CFL bulbs:

20 bulbs x 13 watts x 3 hours per day x 365 days = 284.7 kwh per year

284.7 kwh x $0.08 per kwh = $22.78 per year = $1.90 per month

For LED bulbs:

20 bulbs x 6 watts x 3 hours per day x 365 days = 131.4 kwh per year

131.4 kwh x $0.08 per kwh = $10.51 per year = $0.88 per month

It may not be 8 hours per day averaged over the year that you have lights on, but its likely a little bit more than 3.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by photon

Well it would of course depend on how much each bulb gets used, but work it out.

20 bulbs x 60W = 1.2kW
1.2kW x 8h per day = 9.6kWh per day
9.6kWh x 30 days per month = 288kWh per month

8 cents per kWh = $23.04 per month

Obviously bulbs that get used less than 8 hours per day will take longer to pay for themselves, but should also last longer.

I agree though that CFLs don't seem to last as long as proposed, but it seems to be just some, so it's more a faulty bulb rather than them wearing out early I think, I have ones that are 5+ years old and still work fine.

And the newer ones I have don't look like a hospital (they are as warm as an incandescent).

I'd like some kind of source showing the average bulb is on for 8 hours a day. That seems extremely improbable to me. I don't know what other people do, but I'm at home and not asleep for less than 8 hours per day. When I'm sleeping/out, I turn all the lights off. When I'm at home not asleep, I only use the lights in the room I'm actually in. The average on of my lightbulbs probably gets an hour per day of use or less. In the 3.5 years I've owned my home, I've replaced some of the CFLs twice, so their claim of a 10 year life falls flat for me.

To me, anyone who's using their lightbulbs an AVERAGE of 8 hours per day could do more for the environment by turning some of their lights of than by switching to CFLs.

Another (admittedly anecdotal) piece of information comes from electricity bill. It runs $70-$100 per month for a house with ~40 lightbulbs, not including potlights. With the amount of the bill that is fixed charges and the fact that other appliances (TV, computer, fridge, etc) all use electricity, I can't see there being a reasonably timed payout there. I also haven't noticed any difference since I've started switching to incandecent from CFL when they burn out. (My house had ~30% CFLs when I bought it, and I used the free one I got in the mail.)

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Slava

Maybe you could dumb it down for me?

Lets see though: incandescents cost what $0.50/each? CFLs are about $3.50 a piece....so we're down $3 before you've even hit the switch.

Now have a closer look at your electricity bill. Most of the charges there are not for actual use of the power, but instead charges for delivery and various riders and fees. So how much is your actual power usage each month costing you? I wouldn't want to misquote a figure here and get flamed....but I'm going to say $45/month?

If you can live with those figures then I'm just coming right out and saying that there is no way you are saving $1.00/month per bulb as some people suggest in this thread. I would be paying next to nothing, and you would see the bill for this portion cut in half! Most of that energy use in my house is either the furnace or A/C, along with things like computers, cable boxes, dishwashers, etc. Eventually down the list you get to lightbulbs, but surely this is nowhere near the use of these other things.

So now were examining whether its feasible for me to replace say 25 bulbs at $3.50/each ($87.50) to save a portion of $45/month? Not only that when the bulbs burn out (and they do) your spending another $3.50 instead of the original $0.50 for the incandescent.

So in order to break-even with my back of the envelope calculations you need to save about $75. Then after that you need to have a meaningful impact on my electricity bill. That doesn't mean an entire house switched over to save $1-$2/month. That means trimming the bill enough so that I actually notice and care.....

You're numbers make absolutely no sense.
You want to know if a CLF is going to save you money or how long it will take to pay it off.

If an average bulb is 60 watts, a CFL is 12 watts and electricity costs $0.08/kwh then it's simple math

$3.00 = (0.08 $/kw)(0.06kw - 0.012kw)(x hrs)
x = 781 hrs

That means it takes about 781 hrs to pay for the difference, or about half of an incanescent lightbulb's lifespan.

Another way to look at it is like this

What's the total cost for the lifespan (10000 hrs) of a CF bulb?

$3.50 + (0.012*0.08*10000)
= $13.10

What about an incandescent (1500 hrs)?

$0.50 + (0.06*0.08*1500)
= $7.70

But you'd need more than 6 of those bulbs to last as long as a CF
so now you're looking at more than $50 for the same usage.

So yeah, you man not be using a huge ammount of electricty for lighting, and you may be paying a lot for admin fees etc on your electricity bill, but the fact of the matter is, the cost of CF bulbs over their lifetime is much lower than comparable incandescent lighting.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

For Incandescent Bulbs:

20 bulbs x 60 watts x 3 hours per day x 365 days = 1,314 kwh per year

1314 kwh x $0.08 per kwh = $105.12 per year = $8.76 per month

For CFL bulbs:

20 bulbs x 13 watts x 3 hours per day x 365 days = 284.7 kwh per year

284.7 kwh x $0.08 per kwh = $22.78 per year = $1.90 per month

For LED bulbs:

20 bulbs x 6 watts x 3 hours per day x 365 days = 131.4 kwh per year

131.4 kwh x $0.08 per kwh = $10.51 per year = $0.88 per month

It may not be 8 hours per day averaged over the year that you have lights on, but its likely a little bit more than 3.

I think the problem with calculations like this is that having 20 bulbs on for 3 hours per day each is probably not realistic for most people (or if it is you need to start turning lights off when you leave the room). In a typical house you might have a couple of lights on most of the evening, while others (e.g. bathroom lights, hall lights) are on only rarely. What probably makes sense economically is to replace the bulbs that you are using a lot with CFLs, or even better LEDs, but leave the rarely used lights.

Hopefully by the time you need to replace the rarely-used lights, either the price of CFL/LED bulbs has gone down or high efficiency incandescents (which are still allowed) are available at a reasonable price.

[THE SCUD]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

You're numbers make absolutely no sense.
You want to know if a CLF is going to save you money or how long it will take to pay it off.

If an average bulb is 60 watts, a CFL is 12 watts and electricity costs $0.08/kwh then it's simple math

$3.00 = (0.08 $/kw)(0.06kw - 0.012kw)(x hrs)
x = 781 hrs

That means it takes about 781 hrs to pay for the difference, or about half of an incanescent lightbulb's lifespan.

Another way to look at it is like this

What's the total cost for the lifespan (10000 hrs) of a CF bulb?

$3.50 + (0.012*0.08*10000)
= $13.10

What about an incandescent (1500 hrs)?

$0.50 + (0.06*0.08*1500)
= $7.70

But you'd need more than 6 of those bulbs to last as long as a CF
so now you're looking at more than $50 for the same usage.

So yeah, you man not be using a huge ammount of electricty for lighting, and you may be paying a lot for admin fees etc on your electricity bill, but the fact of the matter is, the cost of CF bulbs over their lifetime is much lower than comparable incandescent lighting.

There is the side-detriment to CFLs that many don't talk about:

It makes your house look like a grow op (or that a new Asian family live there ) from the outside when you've got all CFLs going...

Seriously, All my asian neighbours houses glow like grow ops because they were the only people on the street to go all CFL!

[Ashartus]

Also, CFLs aren't very good for lights that are turned on and off frequently - that can really shorten their lifespan. They're best for lights that you're going to turn on and leave on. For lights that are only on for a couple of minutes at a time it would be better to use one of the other options.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

You're numbers make absolutely no sense.
You want to know if a CLF is going to save you money or how long it will take to pay it off.

If an average bulb is 60 watts, a CFL is 12 watts and electricity costs $0.08/kwh then it's simple math

$3.00 = (0.08 $/kw)(0.06kw - 0.012kw)(x hrs)
x = 781 hrs

That means it takes about 781 hrs to pay for the difference, or about half of an incanescent lightbulb's lifespan.

Another way to look at it is like this

What's the total cost for the lifespan (10000 hrs) of a CF bulb?

$3.50 + (0.012*0.08*10000)
= $13.10

What about an incandescent (1500 hrs)?

$0.50 + (0.06*0.08*1500)
= $7.70

But you'd need more than 6 of those bulbs to last as long as a CF
so now you're looking at more than $50 for the same usage.

So yeah, you man not be using a huge ammount of electricty for lighting, and you may be paying a lot for admin fees etc on your electricity bill, but the fact of the matter is, the cost of CF bulbs over their lifetime is much lower than comparable incandescent lighting.

I suppose you're probably right, this is a better way to calculate this rather than my convoluted rant above. I was just so annoyed with his comment that I spit that one out!

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

I think the problem with calculations like this is that having 20 bulbs on for 3 hours per day each is probably not realistic for most people (or if it is you need to start turning lights off when you leave the room). In a typical house you might have a couple of lights on most of the evening, while others (e.g. bathroom lights, hall lights) are on only rarely. What probably makes sense economically is to replace the bulbs that you are using a lot with CFLs, or even better LEDs, but leave the rarely used lights.

Hopefully by the time you need to replace the rarely-used lights, either the price of CFL/LED bulbs has gone down or high efficiency incandescents (which are still allowed) are available at a reasonable price.

This is the biggest point of difference. 3 hours per day would be a stretch for my most used lights, and some of them don't get 3 hours in an average month (guest bedroom/bathroom).

My experience also hasn't been that CFLs last for 10,000 hours. I've had them go out more frequently that incandecents in the same room. And the two fixtures I'm discussing are almost always used at the same time, so it's a reasonable comparison. Maybe 10,000 hours is their lab life, but in my house they don't last that long. (And I can't figure any way they'd be getting damaged. They are on the ceiling in a no kids/pets house, where they are used on average of 1 time per day. Seems ideal to me)

[You Need a Thneed]

Here's a pretty good breakdown (of course they are using 20 cents per kwh, which is very high for Calgary)

Comparison chart.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Slava

Now have a closer look at your electricity bill. Most of the charges there are not for actual use of the power, but instead charges for delivery and various riders and fees. So how much is your actual power usage each month costing you? I wouldn't want to misquote a figure here and get flamed....but I'm going to say $45/month?

You don't have to estimate anything, the cost of electricity in Alberta right now is about 8 cents per kWh (1000 W for an hour), if you signed up for a contract that's what EasyMax is, the others vary up and down by a bit, or if you don't have a contract it goes up and down more, but that's about what it averages out to.

60W light bulbs are called 60W light bulbs because that's their wattage.

The math's been shown a few times now, which part don't you agree with?

Originally Posted by Slava

If you can live with those figures then I'm just coming right out and saying that there is no way you are saving $1.00/month per bulb as some people suggest in this thread. I would be paying next to nothing, and you would see the bill for this portion cut in half!

It depends entirely on how much the lights are on, as I've already said.

Originally Posted by Slava

Most of that energy use in my house is either the furnace or A/C, along with things like computers, cable boxes, dishwashers, etc. Eventually down the list you get to lightbulbs, but surely this is nowhere near the use of these other things.

Most of those things don't run for as long as lights do. A computer doesn't draw more than a few light bulbs worth of electricity, furnaces run then turn off (and the heat comes from gas not electricity), cable boxes probably take tens of watts, dishwashers run for 45 mins / day, etc etc.

You can even get a watt-meter and plug it in to various devices to see how much they use, lights use a significant portion because they tend to be on for extended periods.

Originally Posted by Slava

That doesn't mean an entire house switched over to save $1-$2/month. That means trimming the bill enough so that I actually notice and care.....

Trimming the bill $2 a month would still be $24 a year, and if your light usage is enough to only spend that much on lighting the lights are going to last a lot longer than the 4 years it'll take to recoup the cost (since bulbs are rated for hours lit).

And I've only had one CFL bulb die in 5+ years; you'd need a higher replacement rate to offset the savings.