Travel trailer towing question?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by flambers

I am not sure Braking is the issue, but the engine will over heat and the transimission will have serious issues if you pull that much weight with a mini van.

I believe the Pontiac Montana is spec'd for 2200 pounds or something like that (i.e. no more than a tent trailer).

He said it was rated for towing 3500 lbs. If it's indeed 2200 pounds then I agree he's pushing it way too far.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Sliver

He said it was rated for towing 3500 lbs. If it's indeed 2200 pounds then I agree he's pushing it way too far.

Have the same vehicale (2003 instead of 2002). Pretty sure it can not pull 3500 lbs (personally would never try to pull that much weight).

Have been pulling a trailer for quite awhile with the Pontiac Montana.

He would need a truck chassis, to pull that type of weight.

[old-fart]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Maybe.

But he seems to be fixated on a WD hitch not increasing the towing capacity and nobody has said that it would.

I get what you're saying though Ken and maybe you're right, although what MacDaddy is proposing wouldn't scare me so I don't think it's particularly dangerous.

Anyway, I guess we can agree to disagree old-fart.

I guess my whole point was that the WD hitch won't make this ok as the trailer itself is way over the towable maximum for that vehicle, not including all the other stuff (people, gear, etc). Not that I don't think a WD hitch makes towing heavier loads better, but that it is sort of irrelevant to this situation. It's still unsafe, WD hitch or no (in my opinion, and that of the vehicle manufacturer, and the law).

Sort of like saying you could cram 8 people into a Mazda Miata. It's not designed to do it, would be against the law, and is completely unsafe... but you could do it. If you gave 7 of them not including the driver a pillow to hold up to their faces, it might make it slightly safer, but it doesn't negate the fact that it is still unsafe and illegal.

[Jackpot_Smooth]

Just re-read your original post and you mentioned tow package which usually would include a transmission cooler. i think general consensus is you shouldn't do this. probably not the answer you're looking for.

[THE SCUD]

2003 Pontiac Montana

• Towing capacity 910 kg (2000 lb.)/1590 kg (3500 lb.) with towing package
  

[flambers]

Originally Posted by THE SCUD

2003 Pontiac Montana

• Towing capacity 910 kg (2000 lb.)/1590 kg (3500 lb.) with towing package
  

I have the towing package, never knew the weight was that high. I would not recommend for someone to pull the "3500" Lbs.

[NinePack]

I would rethink your decision again, Its pretty ignorant and selfish to tow what you are describing. You dont seem to care , But you would be risking lives , yours, your familys, other motorists, wrecking you vehicle. Other thing to think about is tire weight rating. IF you did get into an accident even if you were not at fault, i would assume you insurance company would void your policy.

Be smart

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by NinePack

Other thing to think about is tire weight rating.

A trailer should have tires with enough of a weight rating to be safe, no?

My opinion:

If you have the weight distribution hitch, transmission cooler, proper brake system set up properly, and a hitch rated for the weight, I think you could give it a try. Take it easy, especially at first. You should get a feeling pretty soon as to whether it's adequate or not. That's the thing with trailers, you'll know pretty soon just by feel whether you vehicle is adequate or not.

Just driving home with the dry weight shouldn't be dangerous, if it feels off, the weight isn't so absurdly over that you couldn't ease yourself home. Without a weight distribution hitch, that may not be the case.

[NinePack]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

A trailer should have tires with enough of a weight rating to be safe, no?

My opinion:

If you have the weight distribution hitch, transmission cooler, proper brake system set up properly, and a hitch rated for the weight, I think you could give it a try. Take it easy, especially at first. You should get a feeling pretty soon as to whether it's adequate or not. That's the thing with trailers, you'll know pretty soon just by feel whether you vehicle is adequate or not.

Just driving home with the dry weight shouldn't be dangerous, if it feels off, the weight isn't so absurdly over that you couldn't ease yourself home. Without a weight distribution hitch, that's may not be the case.

I was talking about the tow vehicle tire rating, and unless im confused his hitch is not rated for what he is going to tow , dry weight even.

And i hope he gets the feeling without crashing his vehicle and risking lives! , i dont think you should be telling someone that he should give this a try and see what happens. its clearly NOT a good idea.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by NinePack

I was talking about the tow vehicle tire rating, and unless im confused his hitch is not rated for what he is going to tow , dry weight even.

The tow vehicle's tire rating should be easily acceptable, provided that the trailer is balanced properly so that the tongue weight is acceptable. It shouldn't be more weight on the tires than if you had a couple of big people sitting in the back seat.

I don't see any information about the hitch itself given. Likely a 5000 lb hitch. I covered that in my last post.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

A trailer should have tires with enough of a weight rating to be safe, no?

My opinion:

If you have the weight distribution hitch, transmission cooler, proper brake system set up properly, and a hitch rated for the weight, I think you could give it a try. Take it easy, especially at first. You should get a feeling pretty soon as to whether it's adequate or not. That's the thing with trailers, you'll know pretty soon just by feel whether you vehicle is adequate or not.

Problem is you just listed a bunch of things he probably doesn't have.

Not sure about the hitch, but I kind of doubt it.
Transmission cooler? Not likely on a minivan rated to to 3500 lbs
Proper brake system set up properly? Well he's already over the rated towing capacity, so adequate braking is not at all a certainty.
Hitch rated for the weight? Nope, already over.

Could he do it? Maybe.

Is he risking wrecking his tranny, wrecking his suspension/brakes, getting in an accident, and possibly having his insurance policy voided? Absolutely.

[Envitro]

Most hitches will give a weight carrying hitch rating, and a weight distributing hitch rating.

Mine is 5,000/10,000, but my vehicles max tow rating is 6,200 lbs. I wouldn't really go past 6,000 to be safe but that's just me. If I had to go over slightly then I would, but not for long haul trips.

And I have a WD-hitch with sway control and the whole deal.

[old-fart]

Originally Posted by NinePack

I would rethink your decision again, Its pretty ignorant and selfish to tow what you are describing. You dont seem to care , But you would be risking lives , yours, your familys, other motorists, wrecking you vehicle. Other thing to think about is tire weight rating. IF you did get into an accident even if you were not at fault, i would assume you insurance company would void your policy.

Be smart

Ignoring the tire weight rating part of your comment, you are absolutely correct with respect to insurance. If you are towing a vehicle that is beyond the tow rating of your vehicle (ie towing a 3900lb trailer with a vehicle with a tow rating of 3500lbs) they WILL deny any claim you might make.

Again, it appears I can't say this enough, there are valid reasons for a vehicle to have specific tow ratings. Manufactures don't randomly select numbers from a magic eight ball. They are based on the engineering of the vehicle and all aspects of that engineering - engine, transmission, steering, brakes, frame, etc. They are designed around SAFETY.

If you have a vehicle with a tow rating of 3500lbs, you SHOULD NOT tow more than 3500lbs. A different hitch, a tranny cooler, different tires, a Jesus booblehead doll, Elron Hubbard in the backseat... it doesn't matter. It's still not SAFE, and it is ILLEGAL.

Can you? yes. Will some of those things help somewhat? yes. But should you, and will it be safe/legal? No.

[NinePack]

Regards with tire weight rating, In my case i do believe i need a load range E tire. Something that might not be relevant to most but something to be aware of.

[Jackpot_Smooth]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Problem is you just listed a bunch of things he probably doesn't have.

Not sure about the hitch, but I kind of doubt it.
Transmission cooler? Not likely on a minivan rated to to 3500 lbs
Proper brake system set up properly? Well he's already over the rated towing capacity, so adequate braking is not at all a certainty.
Hitch rated for the weight? Nope, already over.

Could he do it? Maybe.

Is he risking wrecking his tranny, wrecking his suspension/brakes, getting in an accident, and possibly having his insurance policy voided? Absolutely.

He mentioned he has a tow package. typically that's usually more than just a hitch and wiring. usually would include the tranny cooler. the lower tow rating would probably have something to do with it be a front drive as well.

[You Need a Thneed]

If pulling the trailer unloaded was as dangerous as many of you make it out to be, there would be a dozen trailers rolled into the ditch every weekend between Calgary and the mountains.

Pulling the trailer with all the conditions that I said, would be safer than many "legal" scenarios. Have a 3499lb trailer, load an extra 401 lbs into the back of the van, and use no weight distribution hitch. Technically, you'd be legal, however, it would be FAR more dangerous to drive.

I'm certainly not saying that he should just go for it. I'm saying that he could buy the trailer now, get it home, and then look at getting a bigger vehicle, if he wanted.

Driving with the trailer loaded up, and the van full of people and whatever else, that's a different story.

As I mentioned before, my dad towed a significantly larger trailer with a van that wasn't much larger than the Montana for several years and many trips. I'm certain that the Montana has more HP than the Safari my dad used to pull our trailer with. Of course, HP isn't a safety issue.

[NinePack]

nm

[You Need a Thneed]

nm

[old-fart]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

yes, I know there's other factors that could make it illegal. That's beside's the point. The point is that you could make a legal scenario that would be far more dangerous.

So because something else might be MORE dangerous, it's ok to do this dangerous and illegal thing? I'm not entirely sure I follow that logic.

The scenario as described in the first post is dangerous and illegal. Modifying the van, using a WD hitch or having the entire scenario blessed by Elron will not make it ok. Just because other things might be MORE dangerous, doesn't make this NOT dangerous and illegal.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by old-fart

So because something else might be MORE dangerous, it's ok to do this dangerous and illegal thing? I'm not entirely sure I follow that logic.

The scenario as described in the first post is dangerous and illegal. Modifying the van, using a WD hitch or having the entire scenario blessed by Elron will not make it ok. Just because other things might be MORE dangerous, doesn't make this NOT dangerous and illegal.

Again, if pulling the trailer unloaded was as dangerous as you make it out to be, there would be a dozen trailers flipped into the ditch every weekend on HWY 1.

As long as other factors are covered, towing an extra 400 lbs should be well within the safety margins. Especially if, as I said, you take it easy (i.e. max out at 80 km/h, etc)

I'm ok with differing opinions on whether he should do it. The question as to whether it is "dangerous"? It simply isn't unreasonably so, no more than towing a trailer in the first place.

Total Trailer Weight is really a small factor compared to being overweight on the rear axle of the tow vehicle, or having inadequate brakes, It's really one of the smaller issues in terms of actual safety (legality aside). The trailer should be doing all of it's own braking; less power just means that it'll take longer to get to speed. Extra strain on a transmission can be mitigated by a transmission cooler, or just by going slower and taking it easier. You might worry if the trailer was significantly over the rating that the frame of the vehicle wasn't strong enough, but I think that 10% would be well within the safety margins.

Theoretically, you could move around a 20,000 lb (maybe a slight exaggeration) trailer with the montana safely, provided that the brakes were adequate, the hitch was strong enough, and the weight was balanced properly, so that there wasn't too much weight on the tow vehicle. You'd just have to go really slow.