From someone who affirms the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth, please consider the following:
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Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814
There are mentions of him in many ancient Roman accounts and letters; the writings of Tacitus, Pliny the Younger and others.
While this is true, the pagan sources are themselves problematic given how far they are removed from the time of Jesus. Pliny the Younger, Seutonius, and Tacitus all wrote in the first quarter of the second century, some eighty years after the death of Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814
Jewish historians in the first century reference the existence of a man named Jesus who was put to death, and rumored to be called 'the Christ'.
Not exactly. Jesus was mentioned by no Jewish historian other than Flavius Josephus c. 90 C.E., but his account is complicated by the clear fact that it has been corrupted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814
These sources suffer from the same issues as all ancient texts, but there's enough writing that pops up at more or less the same time that corroborates the existence of a guy named Jesus who was executed by Romans, and that the aftermath of that event caused some issues.
I can agree with this, but simultaneously, I don't think that the historical Jesus of Nazareth—to be distinguished from the legendary "Jesus Christ" who developed from this man—fits the criteria of "legitimately good" as far as this thread understands to question. I would be more inclined to consider him over-rated, in large part because there is virtually nothing of much special significance in his philosophy, his teachings, or even in the events of his martyrdom that distinguished him from his Jewish apocalyptic contemporaries. In fact, this may be considered one of the puzzling things about the myth of Jesus: that it developed so quickly around a man who was not so exceptional in what he said or did.
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
As far as female musicians go I would have to say in addition to Joplin, Patsy Cline should be included(even if you don't really like the genre of music she performed). She died at the height of her career, was the first female musician to headline her own show instead of being relegated as a side act, and influenced countless female musicians before and after her death at 30.
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Aaliyah was another one who passed away much too early. The girl was supremely talented within her genre of music. She was already massively popular in by the time she died in 2001.
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Personal bug of mine, both SRV and Bob Marley, while fine musicians were by no means innovative or brought much new to their chosen styles, Jimmie Vaughan, SRV's brother is imho a better guitarist and his work with the Fabulous Thunderbirds was far more interesting.
Not saying they were lousy, but both were listened to by an audiance that didn't have much knowledge of the music they were making and so assumed they were masters as opposed to competant workmen.
From someone who affirms the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth, please consider the following:
While this is true, the pagan sources are themselves problematic given how far they are removed from the time of Jesus. Pliny the Younger, Seutonius, and Tacitus all wrote in the first quarter of the second century, some eighty years after the death of Jesus.
Not exactly. Jesus was mentioned by no Jewish historian other than Flavius Josephus c. 90 C.E., but his account is complicated by the clear fact that it has been corrupted.
I can agree with this, but simultaneously, I don't think that the historical Jesus of Nazareth—to be distinguished from the legendary "Jesus Christ" who developed from this man—fits the criteria of "legitimately good" as far as this thread understands to question. I would be more inclined to consider him over-rated, in large part because there is virtually nothing of much special significance in his philosophy, his teachings, or even in the events of his martyrdom that distinguished him from his Jewish apocalyptic contemporaries. In fact, this may be considered one of the puzzling things about the myth of Jesus: that it developed so quickly around a man who was not so exceptional in what he said or did.
All your points are valid; I would counter simply by saying that, we're dealing with a time in which there isn't a lot of documenting peoples' affairs going on. We know about famous generals, kings, emperors etc because those were the people who mattered. Literacy is extremely limited, and as a result, you're not exactly going to find a bunch of personal diaries in the mud huts of bakers. It's entirely plausible that the reason it takes so long for Jesus to appear in historical records is that it takes that long for his influence to be truly felt, and for him to matter enough to the powers that be to even get mentioned.
That point is especially underscored if you take Jesus' declaration to 'render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's' to be more or less true; the only people who would've had issues with him would have been Jewish leadership, not anyone in the Roman sphere of influence.
There's a whole other discussion that we could have here, but my original point was that in the context of this thread, Jesus would have to be in the 'over-rated' camp because odds are, he was just a carpenter who tried to spread some love and happiness around, and pissed off the wrong people. He was martyred, and his legend grew. And if that's the case, he wins this thread hands down lol.
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Personal bug of mine, both SRV and Bob Marley, while fine musicians were by no means innovative or brought much new to their chosen styles, Jimmie Vaughan, SRV's brother is imho a better guitarist and his work with the Fabulous Thunderbirds was far more interesting.
Not saying they were lousy, but both were listened to by an audiance that didn't have much knowledge of the music they were making and so assumed they were masters as opposed to competant workmen.
With regards to Bob Marley, it wasn't so much his music as his message. He was heavy into civil rights and that's what his legacy is about.
Not to pick on you DFF but I hate it when people refer to addictions (alcohol or drugs) as diseases. Calling an addiction a disease really insults those who have diseases like cancer. It's not a disease, it is a cognitive behaviour disfunction.
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Not to pick on you DFF but I hate it when people refer to addictions (alcohol or drugs) as diseases. Calling an addiction a disease really insults those who have diseases like cancer. It's not a disease, it is a cognitive behaviour disfunction.
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Not to pick on you DFF but I hate it when people refer to addictions (alcohol or drugs) as diseases. Calling an addiction a disease really insults those who have diseases like cancer. It's not a disease, it is a cognitive behaviour disfunction.
Yeah that actually annoyed me, too. Layne Staley didn't have a disease; he was a junkie. It makes him sound like a victim when you say he had a disease.
With regards to Bob Marley, it wasn't so much his music as his message. He was heavy into civil rights and that's what his legacy is about.
Virtually all Jamaican music of that era was about civil rights, it was/is a hallmark of the roots era and Jamaican music in general pre dancehall.
Peter Tosh is in many ways more revered on the Island as he was damn near killed by the police after using his music to shame the islands politicians.
One of my favorites from the era, the Cool Ruler, Gregory Issacs and Babylon Too Rough, if you listen carefully you can hear him lift parts of the chorus from Desmond Deckers '007 (shanty town)' as a tribute Deckers 1960's song about how hard it was for the rightous to live in a Babylon.
Last edited by afc wimbledon; 08-08-2011 at 05:31 PM.
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