Skepchick vs. Dawkins

[Burninator]

I like Phil and read his blog and own two of his books and I find him to be one of the most reasonable skeptics out there and I find that I agree with him almost of all the time, but calling this a "potential sexual assault" is puzzling. Is it the location or the time that makes it a potential sexual assault? Is any form of flirting a potential sexual assault? I don't get why this issue is getting so much attention. Obviously they are issues to be dealt with in regards to women in science and skepticism (and other areas) but this seems like an odd one to put forth.

[Shades]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Even if the guy said nothing, perhaps an attitude like hers would still cause her to be afraid? In which case, that's more telling about her than his actions are to him.

Regardless of what caused her to be afraid, it's Dawkin's flippant attitude and the way he marginalized her view that makes him a d-bag.

[calf]

Originally Posted by photon

Adults getting together to have sex with one another is normal behviour yes? If so, then I don't understand how such things can occur without some form of communication between the two people, and in any communication one party is going to be the one that initiated.

The problem, if I understand it, was that Watson was alone with a man in an elevator, and that situation made her (and would most women, am I understanding?) uncomfortable because of a risk of sexual assault?

How is that at all reasonable? Most men do not and never would commit assaults, if just the simple act of being in an elevator with a man makes the woman feel like an assault is a real possibility, that's insulting to ME, implying all men have the potential to commit sexual assaults in elevators.

I think for the woman, it isn't so much that 99% of of the time nothing will happen, but moreso, what could happen the other 1% of the time - to me, it's a basic self-preservation mechanism. Most women I know won't walk around alone downtown after dark, even though odds are nothing will happen either. Most women I know also won't go to the hotel room of a stranger they just met just a few minutes ago either just in case, or, because they aren't sex objects. Might be an unfair insinuation, but it's rational.

[troutman]

I encourage people to read the background and context for all this. People are commenting on this (here and elsewhere without benefit of all the context). I think it started with Rebecca Watson saying simply "hey guys, don't do this, it is kind of creepy". It has escalated from there. This has really gone viral in the skeptic blogosphere.

Rebecca and Dawkins are both featured guests at the upcoming Amazing Meeting (TAM) in Las Vegas. Should be extra interesting. They have both continued to comment on this subject.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...g-meeting.html

[SeeBass]

Perhaps men need to start speaking out that it is not fair to be afraid of a man just because he is a man.

I am a husband, brother, son and uncle who loves and respects women and I demand to be treated like one... Nah sounds corny

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Shades

Regardless of what caused her to be afraid, it's Dawkin's flippant attitude and the way he marginalized her view that makes him a d-bag.

I'm not disagreeing with that, and I did say he crossed a line, but that's separate from the quote you picked. The situation and her reaction to it would have happened with or without Dawkins commenting on it.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by photon

Someone help me, I'm honestly struggling to comprehend Watson's side of the argument here.

It's simple really.

It is clear that she buys into the "all men are potential rapists" misandry propaganda that modern lesbi.......(ahem) feminists spout off on a regular basis.

In other words, it has no common sense to it whatsoever.

It's funny to me, ...because you just know that if it was a handsome alpha smooth talker with her in the elevator, not a damn thing would have come of this. Hell, she may have gotten laid.

Watson needs to get a grip on reality and grow up.

[SeeBass]

switch the term man with any race,religion and creed in her statement.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

Perhaps men need to start speaking out that it is not fair to be afraid of a man just because he is a man.

I am a husband, brother, son and uncle who loves and respects women and I demand to be treated like one... Nah sounds corny

I've started saying stuff like this, and I do get a lot of nods from females in the conversation, but I also get a lot of 'oh, you have poor white man syndrome. you have no idea what it's like to be a minority.'

Even though, like I mentioned I have a pretty significant handicap and I do actually know what it's like to be in the minority in many situations.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

It's simple really.

It is clear that she buys into the "all men are potential rapists" misandry propaganda that modern lesbi.......(ahem) feminists spout off on a regular basis.

In other words, it has no common sense to it whatsoever.

It's funny to me, ...because you just know that if it was a handsome alpha smooth talker with her in the elevator, not a damn thing would have come of this. Hell, she may have gotten laid.

Watson needs to get a grip on reality and grow up.

I read somewhere before that 60% of women in Canada claim to have been sexually assaulted at some point in their lives (it's probably googlable, but I don't care enough to verify it). If those numbers are true, then I can see why she might react the way she did. A guy following her to her room at 4am is pretty downright creepy at the very least.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by troutman

I encourage people to read the background and context for all this. I think it started with Rebecca Watson saying simply "hey guys, don't do this, it is kind of creepy". It has escalated from there. This has really gone viral in the skeptic blogosphere.
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...g-meeting.html

In the video she also said that she was "sexualized". Which was what stood out for me over the creepy remark. But that word could mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

It's simple really.

It is clear that she buys into the "all men are potential rapists" misandry propaganda that modern lesbi.......(ahem) feminists spout off on a regular basis.

In other words, it has no common sense to it whatsoever.

It's funny to me, ...because you just know that if it was a handsome alpha smooth talker with her in the elevator, not a damn thing would have come of this. Hell, she may have gotten laid.

Watson needs to get a grip on reality and grow up.

Exactly. You know if it was some James Bond lookalike she'd probably feel pretty flattered about the whole thing. Somehow I think the fella that gave it a shot didn't fit into her idea of what a romantic man looks or acts like. Basically it sounds to me like a crusade for ugly or strange guys not to hit on her.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Agreed 110% on your post, photon. I think a reasonable point for her to make was "Don't hit on chicks at 4 AM alone in an elevator with an awful pick-up line and expect to get anywhere".

I understood that was her original point. Dawkins made three comments on the PZ Myers blog, and it has exploded from there.

[SeeBass]

A perfect example was 10 years ago I was in a city park reading a book.

A woman walked up to me and asked me to leave cause I was making her and her kids uncomfortable.

We were the only people in the park and I was there first but she felt intitled to ask me of this. I never even noticed them until she spoke to me and I was at least 20 yards from them but being a large scary looking man was enough.

I have never forgotten that feeling I had from that, it was so insulting and I felt so wronged. But she felt so comfortable and justified in her request that is what suprised me the most.

[kermitology]

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that rapists can't read. Dumb woman.

[Matata]

What's so hard about carrying mace around? If your piece of mind is so fragile, then be prepared. No one is tougher than a face full of pepper spray.

[Savvy27]

My initial reaction was extremely dismissive toward Rebecca Watson's complaint, but after reading a few more perspectives I think I understand her point and relate to it a little bit.

When I was in Bangkok with my girlfriend, we decided one night around 1am that we wanted to have a few more drinks. The bars around our hostel were closed so we got a ride on a Tuk-tuk (cab type thing) and asked the driver to take us somewhere that was open. He took us to a bar that he got a commission for, but the entrance to the bar was halfway down a long dark alley. Faced with the uncertainty of our safety and my (probably) being a little over-protective of my girlfriend, we decided to have the driver take us back to the hostel and planned out our next night a little better (we also gave the driver some extra money to cover his commission).

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/gu...t-being-maced/

In this blog post, the writer discusses "Schrodinger's rapist" a seemingly nice man who may or may not be a rapist. I said that I could relate to Ms. Watson's because for us, it was "Schrodinger's Dangerous Alley" or "Schrodinger's Group of Muggers".

Now the Tuk-tuk driver and welcome staff were clearly offended and we had implicitly signalled that we felt Bangkok was so full of criminals that we were unwilling to take the chance of a thirty second walk down an unlit alley, but, frankly, that's too bad for them. Besides, much like the elevator guy, if the context was a little different (street facing entrance perhaps?) our response and comfort level would have been a little different.

Back to the issue, Rebecca Watson was in an even less comfortable situation because she was alone and in a confined space. I think it's fair for her to presume that she was being propositioned by a 4AM coffee invitation and it is reasonable that she was uneasy about how he might respond to being turned down.

Putting aside the Dawkins stuff, I think that Rebecca Watson gives good advice to the extent that had the man waited until she was off the elevator and made the same proposition (from inside the elevator, not following her into the hallway) it would have been better, if still unwanted and uncomfortable.

I am not so supportive of the larger suggestion that men should never sexualize strangers, but as far as the elevator situation, my opinion changed as I read some more perspectives and wanted to share how I got here.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by photon

I didn't get it when I first read it and I don't get it now, maybe someone can help explain it to me.

I don't understand what was wrong with the whole situation.

Adults getting together to have sex with one another is normal behviour yes? If so, then I don't understand how such things can occur without some form of communication between the two people, and in any communication one party is going to be the one that initiated.

The problem, if I understand it, was that Watson was alone with a man in an elevator, and that situation made her (and would most women, am I understanding?) uncomfortable because of a risk of sexual assault?

How is that at all reasonable? Most men do not and never would commit assaults, if just the simple act of being in an elevator with a man makes the woman feel like an assault is a real possibility, that's insulting to ME, implying all men have the potential to commit sexual assaults in elevators.

Or should it always be the woman who initiates? How is that fair?

If I'm in an elevator with a black man, should I be uncomfortable because I've seen black men beat up white men?

Women aren't sex objects, they're people who have sex and people with whom other people would like to have sex with.

Someone help me, I'm honestly struggling to comprehend Watson's side of the argument here.

echos my thoughts exactly, well said.

[TorqueDog]

On the subject of waiting to be in the elevator before asking, people often wait until there's a little more privacy before making such advances anyway. Being turned down sucks and being turned down where there's a lot of people around to witness your failure is even worse (don't compare this to being in a bar/club because that's a different animal altogether).

Originally Posted by troutman

I understood that was her original point.

I don't quite agree there. Even without saying much, she made it into a lot more than that and you can tell that her message wasn't as simple as what I suggested it should have been.

Talking about being sexualised and tying it in with the fact that she had spoken about the subject earlier in the evening. By her own admission, he even said "Don't take this the wrong way" to start out, which means he obviously was aware of the potential context that his remarks could have been perceived to be in and was sensitive to - if not simply feigning sensitivity, which we'll never know anyway - her feelings on how it might have been taken.

[MelBridgeman]

This sums it up perfectly

NSFW!

http://www.blinkx.com/watch-video/to...II_oYNH7gQfUpA

some language