Love the smell of a Majority Government in the Morning!

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I disagree with you, especially when the government is as bloated as this one is.

The government should not be in the field of employing for employment numbers sake, it has an obligation to the taxpayers to be as efficient and lean as possible, just the same as a private company is obligated to its share holders.

It didn't help that the report came out this week of government employees spending their days viewing porn and spending hours on dating sites this week.

The government of any country is by its nature inefficient, and between unrealistic pension and benefit programs and a expected inefficient worker base these cuts have to happen, I would have hoped that they would be a bit deeper to be honest.

You disagree with me, so you think it is right to dismiss ALL government employees in that way. Wow.

Sure there are some that abuse IT systems for personal use, and I have no problem with action taking against those layabouts. But to tarnish ALL of them? Nah.

And I never said a single word about a Government employing for employment numbers sake. What I take issue with is the sentiment of the OP that takes delight in people using their jobs.

I don't take delight in that, whether it occurs in the private or public sector. Of the 1200 people losing their jobs, on past experience, most will find alternative employment, but within such a large number, there will be some personal and family tragedies. I cannot stomach anyone who would take delight in that.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

You disagree with me, so you think it is right to dismiss ALL government employees in that way. Wow.

Sure there are some that abuse IT systems for personal use, and I have no problem with action taking against those layabouts. But to tarnish ALL of them? Nah.

And I never said a single word about a Government employing for employment numbers sake. What I take issue with is the sentiment of the OP that takes delight in people using their jobs.

I don't take delight in that, whether it occurs in the private or public sector. Of the 1200 people losing their jobs, on past experience, most will find alternative employment, but within such a large number, there will be some personal and family tragedies. I cannot stomach anyone who would take delight in that.

Where the hell did I say that I take pleasure in those people losing jobs. Your trying to add an emotional tangent to a situation where there simply can't be one.

The IT examples are just examples of inefficiencies, there are lots more.

The government is bloated, there is no argument about that, and as much as we can be sentimental about the jobs and not pull the trigger because of that, it would be a disservice to the tax payers as a whole.

In public and private sector you can't keep people employed just because they have families to feed or because they're swell guys. There's no need for their skill set, or that government employee is under utilized, or that job description can be folded into another persons portfolio.

And yes, I think that there should have absolutely been deeper cuts, just like I strongly believe that there has to be deep cuts on the administration side of health care.

And in a country with an low unemployment rate, I'm not to torn up and worried about people being able to find gainful employment elsewhere.

At the end of the day its business, and sentiment and sadness and to an effect loyalty can't come into the equation.

I didn't hear people crying when the federal government took a really huge axe to the senior command and logistical structure of the Canadian forces, and to the surprise of some the Forces came out far more efficient then they were before.

Canada Post employees were fighting against measures that would have made Canada post more efficient, that to me is completely wrong.

When a country is in deficit the first place to really cut is in the employee base, it makes the most sense.

Am I sorry that these people have lost their jobs, sure, am I celebrating it, not really, but at the end of the day its the best first step.

[Slava]

I largely agree with you CC, but to say that no one was complaining about the military cuts is laughable. It's been brought up in this thread and IIRC it came up in the election thread as well.

I don't know what the fix is for healthcare, but frankly it seems too simple to just say let's cut admin positions. I have a feeling that if that was the great panacea it's presented as then it would be done?

That being said we could have the deficit issue solved in a heartbeat. As Warren Buffett says, just make a law that if the government runs a deficit of more than 3% of GDP that they are not eligible for re-election. I have no doubt that the deficits would disappear as soon as some occupational risk was added!

[pylon]

If my job was sourced to the federal government, they would need 4 or 5 people to do it. We have hired some ex bank hot shots to work finance in an automotive dealership, and they can't handle the workload before buckling under the pressure. They might do 1 or 2 loans a day at a branch, I have done 17 in one day. Its not because I am 'better', it is because I didn't know any better, and there was no precedent of lazy suck set in my mind or by my peers when I came in. They just say "If you want the job, get it done."

People have forgotten how to work hard, and the government enables laziness. I am glad to see they are taking steps to bring these people down to reality.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Where the hell did I say that I take pleasure in those people losing jobs. Your trying to add an emotional tangent to a situation where there simply can't be one.

The IT examples are just examples of inefficiencies, there are lots more.

The government is bloated, there is no argument about that, and as much as we can be sentimental about the jobs and not pull the trigger because of that, it would be a disservice to the tax payers as a whole.

In public and private sector you can't keep people employed just because they have families to feed or because they're swell guys. There's no need for their skill set, or that government employee is under utilized, or that job description can be folded into another persons portfolio.

And yes, I think that there should have absolutely been deeper cuts, just like I strongly believe that there has to be deep cuts on the administration side of health care.

And in a country with an low unemployment rate, I'm not to torn up and worried about people being able to find gainful employment elsewhere.

At the end of the day its business, and sentiment and sadness and to an effect loyalty can't come into the equation.

I didn't hear people crying when the federal government took a really huge axe to the senior command and logistical structure of the Canadian forces, and to the surprise of some the Forces came out far more efficient then they were before.

Canada Post employees were fighting against measures that would have made Canada post more efficient, that to me is completely wrong.

When a country is in deficit the first place to really cut is in the employee base, it makes the most sense.

Am I sorry that these people have lost their jobs, sure, am I celebrating it, not really, but at the end of the day its the best first step.

I really think you ought to read my post again. I specified the sentiment of joy being that expressed by the OP. I also expressed I have no issue with employees, who abuse work privileges getting the sack. These are not job losses arising from people abusing privileges in the workplace. I also express I have empathy irrespective of the sectors where largescale job losses occur.

Largescale job losses in any area impact on a far greater scale than the immediate organisation being hit, so there will be knock on effects outside the public sector in these areas. Where my emotion comes into this, is in response to the ORIGINAL POSTER who seems to take delight in people losing their jobs. It is that that raises my ire. For all I know, these job losses may be a wonderful and overdue stroke of management, but it is nothing to celebrate.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

I really think you ought to read my post again. I specified the sentiment of joy being that expressed by the OP. I also expressed I have no issue with employees, who abuse work privileges getting the sack. These are not job losses arising from people abusing privileges in the workplace. I also express I have empathy irrespective of the sectors where largescale job losses occur.

Largescale job losses in any area impact on a far greater scale than the immediate organisation being hit, so there will be knock on effects outside the public sector in these areas. Where my emotion comes into this, is in response to the ORIGINAL POSTER who seems to take delight in people losing their jobs. It is that that raises my ire. For all I know, these job losses may be a wonderful and overdue stroke of management, but it is nothing to celebrate.

And you need to re-read what the OP was saying....he was not celebrating the loss of jobs for 1200 people...he was enjoying that the government was cutting back a total of 1200 positions that are very likely either/or unproductive or unnecessary. In fact that was made perfectly clear in a subsequent post.

An overreaction of epic proportions by you IMO.

[Barnet Flame]

Nah. He changed his position when called on it.

PUUUULLLLEEEASE!

These weren't some poor family along the Maritimes forced into the EI because they were longer allowed to fish because of some well healed bureaucrat deciding that they should not. This was WELL HEALED BUREAUCRATS no longer ALLOWED to tell those poor families what they can an cannot do.

Stay REAL Rubecube.

This is his true sentiment. Those well healed bureaucrats on $65k a year.

Gimme a break.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The government is bloated, there is no argument about that

Not that I am saying you're wrong, but that's an assumption that has become an almost unchallenged axiom. Given that there has to be some level of government staffing if you want to actually have a government, it necessarily follows that it is possible for there to be insufficient staffing as well as overstaffing. Or, even more mind-boggling - the correct number of staff.

Cutting staff can be a false economy. Starting from the premise that the gov't is bloated and there "have" to be efficiencies is guaranteed to reduce payroll in the short-term, but that doesn't mean that it's in the long-term best interest of the country or even a long-term net saving. It's always best to beware "solutions" based on a single objective divorced of context.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

Nah. He changed his position when called on it.

This is his true sentiment. Those well healed bureaucrats on $65k a year.

Gimme a break.

I never changed my position one iota. Governement cutting back is something to celebrate, as it rarely happens. That was my incredualous reaction when, inevitably these threads I post turn into direct attacks on me, Rubecube tried to frame this thread as me celebrating that these poor souls were carelessly tossed from their minimum wage jobs to starve on the streets of our capital.

1.6 billion dollars for 1200 people works out to be 133,000 dollars per person. Even divided in half, the 65K amount, shows they were well above the poverty levels. In reality these professionals were likely making in the range of 80-100K with full benefits. I am sure they are all quite capable of finding gainful employment in the near future.

[LokeyD]

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by HOZ

1.6 billion dollars for 1200 people works out to be 133,000 dollars per person. Even divided in half, the 65K amount, shows they were well above the poverty levels. In reality these professionals were likely making in the range of 80-100K with full benefits. I am sure they are all quite capable of finding gainful employment in the near future.

Wow, what's the count on the number of completely unfounded assumptions / talking out his a**-isms in that one paragraph alone? We have no idea how much of the $1.6B savings is made up of salaries. I can tell you that my father worked for the federal government for 35+ years, ending up in a regional manager position, and he wasn't making 80-100K with full benefits. And anyone who thinks that every or even most people laid off in this economic environment will simply walk into a new job in short order that is anywhere near comparable hasn't been paying attention to the real world.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Mike F

Wow, what's the count on the number of completely unfounded assumptions / talking out his a**-isms in that one paragraph alone? We have no idea how much of the $1.6B savings is made up of salaries. I can tell you that my father worked for the federal government for 35+ years, ending up in a regional manager position, and he wasn't making 80-100K with full benefits. And anyone who thinks that every or even most people laid off in this economic environment will simply walk into a new job in short order that is anywhere near comparable hasn't been paying attention to the real world.

Mike F,
35+ years.....say from 1970 to 2005 and he was making less than 80K as a regional manager? When did your Dad retire?

Here is a salary scale of one kind for the Federal Government

He had to of been step 8 by his retirement.

Step one is 91K

[Barnet Flame]

Yeah Mike, stop listening to your Dad's BS. If you want to know what your Dad earned, how hard he worked and what benefits he received, ask HOZ.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by HOZ

PUUUULLLLEEEASE!

These weren't some poor family along the Maritimes forced into the EI because they were longer allowed to fish because of some well healed bureaucrat deciding that they should not. This was WELL HEALED BUREAUCRATS no longer ALLOWED to tell those poor families what they can an cannot do.

Stay REAL Rubecube.

Holy frack dude. You have no idea who these people are because the GOVERNMENT still doesn't know who they are. All they know is they need to cut 1200 jobs.

You need to calm the frack down a little about people losing their jobs. Grow up.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The government is bloated, there is no argument about that, and as much as we can be sentimental about the jobs and not pull the trigger because of that, it would be a disservice to the tax payers as a whole.

.

This is a blanket statement that is not true. Yes, in some sectors the government is bloated, but in the same number that it is bloated, it is understaffed in others. The real problem is the government not being able to manage their resources well.

The other problem is Canadians want all these services but they don't want people to provide it to them as public servants are BAD. Canadians either need to decide to cut the programs which means their services or fund them properly with either user fees or tax increases. We can't have it both ways.

In my department in my agency, we could easily add 300% more staff and still have more work than we can handle, yet, because blanket statements like this, we will probably lose funding because Canadians think public servants are BAD, overpaid, and lazy.

[Kefka]

I cant possibly agree with Pylon more. I find that people in the public sector and those who work in unions dont know what real work is. They're lazy, self entitled, and frankly, if not for their government or union would likely be out on their ass in the streets pan handling.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Kefka

I cant possibly agree with Pylon more. I find that people in the public sector and those who work in unions dont know what real work is. They're lazy, self entitled, and frankly, if not for their government or union would likely be out on their ass in the streets pan handling.

Haha, wow, another blanket statement. Yes I agree that there are some lazy a-holes that would be fired on the spot if in the private sector. I would say about 20% of the people I work with are like this, the other 80% work their ass off like anyone else. One of the problems is you cannot compare my job to a private sector job because there is no equivalent. There is no private company or group that does my job or anything even close to it.

Also, with regards to lazy people not being fired. I can speak only to my union but I can say this, it is not the union that they are kept around. It is because management has no idea how to properly document and discipline these people. Management is to scared and are not provided the proper training on how to deal with them.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by Kefka

I cant possibly agree with Pylon more. I find that people in the public sector and those who work in unions dont know what real work is. They're lazy, self entitled, and frankly, if not for their government or union would likely be out on their ass in the streets pan handling.

There are lazy, self entitled people in the private sector too - that's just people.

[Ark2]

Why didn't the government employee look out the window in the morning? Because then he'd have nothing to do in the afternoon.

[Calgaryborn]

I glad with this move. The provinces should be in charge of their own resources; That includes the environment. The Federal role should be limited to the Territories and oceans. Overlapping of government authorities cost Canadians billions.